Heaven's Feel Movies

[Rokudaime]

So I just watched the first two movies today and never having played the route before, I gotta say WTF?! Why do people like this route so much? It's so depressing. Don't get me wrong, the movies are beautifully written and animated, real treat to watch, but my god, this raises so many questions for me. Props to the voice cast in the English as well though, great work all round, especially like Cursed Arm and Shiro, even if neither of their actors names are coming to mind right now.

Reason 1: It's the most different route, and it twists and changes a lot of things.
Reason 2: It has a darker feel to it (based on your comment, I guess this is a minus to you. *shrug*).
Reason 3: Shirou's character finally undergoes a massive change, and the route is a perfect culmination of his character development across all 3 routes.
Reason 4: By far the route with the more realistic romance. Rin is my favourite of the FSN girls, but Shirou and Sakura's relationship, and the way it develops, is just better, imo. This is especially true in the VN.
Reason 5: The (imo) best and most complete ending by miles.

Also, you really should have watched the third and final movie as well before making your comment, as a lot of the reasons I just mentioned, naturally, don't reveal themselves until the end.

[Hawkeye]

Reason 1: It's the most different route, and it twists and changes a lot of things.
Reason 2: It has a darker feel to it (based on your comment, I guess this is a minus to you. *shrug*).
Reason 3: Shirou's character finally undergoes a massive change, and the route is a perfect culmination of his character development across all 3 routes.
Reason 4: By far the route with the more realistic romance. Rin is my favourite of the FSN girls, but Shirou and Sakura's relationship, and the way it develops, is just better, imo. This is especially true in the VN.
Reason 5: The (imo) best and most complete ending by miles.

Also, you really should have watched the third and final movie as well before making your comment, as a lot of the reasons I just mentioned, naturally, don't reveal themselves until the end.

Thanks for the input. I do actually like darker things. Watching the movies they felt more like a horror than the fantasy/action of the other media out there, but I do make a distinction between dark and depressing and HF sadly lays both on thick. XD

In regards to point 4, that's very fair and I can see your point, but I also can't really bring myself to like Sakura. I feel sorry for her and all, but with HF also being the final route and the 'canon' ending for lack of a better term, I can't help but feel the whole tone is kinda regressive. Like Artoria is a literal dragon knight that can kick ass all over and while Rin is tsundere incarnate, she's also a very strong character. Sakura by comparison so far comes across as very Yamato Nadeshiko and damsel-like and that feels somewhat worse when Shiro is seemingly willing to give up not just his raison d'etre for living the past decade, but potentially the lives of hundreds if not thousands for it. If anything I feel like Fate/Kaleid did it better by having a very dark and seemingly hopeless situation, but also not having the protag give up on their goal and instead striving to achieve the impossible. Yeah, it might come across as naive or idealistic, but what is fiction for if not indulging in the impossible?

I dunno, maybe the third movie will change my mind and conclude things well, but I can't say yet. I would've liked to have watched the third, but I'm watching them with my nephew and he's a pleb who doesn't do subs.

[Tony246]

Uh, HF is as 'canon' as the other endings dude. Multiverse shenanigans and all that.

[TheSeaDragon]

Is not "more canon" indeed, but as illya and taiga said is the "grand finale"

[Laserman]

Thank you! Love Bryce's work in general, he was great in Blue Exorcist.

Oh, yes he was. I absolutely loved him as Rin. I'm actually reading the manga right now.

[Altima of the Gates]

Thanks for the input. I do actually like darker things. Watching the movies they felt more like a horror than the fantasy/action of the other media out there, but I do make a distinction between dark and depressing and HF sadly lays both on thick. XD

In regards to point 4, that's very fair and I can see your point, but I also can't really bring myself to like Sakura. I feel sorry for her and all, but with HF also being the final route and the 'canon' ending for lack of a better term, I can't help but feel the whole tone is kinda regressive. Like Artoria is a literal dragon knight that can kick ass all over and while Rin is tsundere incarnate, she's also a very strong character. Sakura by comparison so far comes across as very Yamato Nadeshiko and damsel-like and that feels somewhat worse when Shiro is seemingly willing to give up not just his raison d'etre for living the past decade, but potentially the lives of hundreds if not thousands for it. If anything I feel like Fate/Kaleid did it better by having a very dark and seemingly hopeless situation, but also not having the protag give up on their goal and instead striving to achieve the impossible. Yeah, it might come across as naive or idealistic, but what is fiction for if not indulging in the impossible?

I dunno, maybe the third movie will change my mind and conclude things well, but I can't say yet. I would've liked to have watched the third, but I'm watching them with my nephew and he's a pleb who doesn't do subs.

Shirou in this instance and Shirou in Prisma were pretty different. Like, sacrificing Miyu in order to have a nebulous wish would be more heinous because then you don't really have an excuse but to say that you killed her to achieve a goal that wasn't certifiable.
With Sakura, people have more excuses to say why she should have died, despite evidence to the contrary being shown as you just throwing her life away when the source of the problem was elsewhere. People even now foolishly make that claim, and say that it was the right choice to let her die knowing the truth.
HF to me was more of bad situation blindsiding everyone and it aired out all the gnarly stuff, about their pasts, about the ritual, about everything. And the antagonists using the protags' inexperience as well as knowledge outside their purview to fabricate a moral quandary in order for Sakura to be linked to AM. If the solution to help the town (and would therefore help Sakura) was known from the beginning, the way would be clear.
Sakura being framed as a damsel just doesn't sit right in that many times in the VN, she would ask how she could help, offer to fight, or she would do things behind the scenes, despite her condition. That's why I never really thought it was dark and edgy, at least compared to the stuff in the other routes, its just like "well, you put the literal devil into a tortured child, what the fuck do you think will happen?" Certainly no more worse than "lel, let's keep the dried husks of orphans down here for ten years for kicks" or "lemme cut the eyes out of a kid, then stab and rub their heart out because mongrels".

[Hawkeye]

Shirou in this instance and Shirou in Prisma were pretty different. Like, sacrificing Miyu in order to have a nebulous wish would be more heinous because then you don't really have an excuse but to say that you killed her to achieve a goal that wasn't certifiable.
With Sakura, people have more excuses to say why she should have died, despite evidence to the contrary being shown as you just throwing her life away when the source of the problem was elsewhere. People even now foolishly make that claim, and say that it was the right choice to let her die knowing the truth.
HF to me was more of bad situation blindsiding everyone and it aired out all the gnarly stuff, about their pasts, about the ritual, about everything. And the antagonists using the protags' inexperience as well as knowledge outside their purview to fabricate a moral quandary in order for Sakura to be linked to AM. If the solution to help the town (and would therefore help Sakura) was known from the beginning, the way would be clear.
Sakura being framed as a damsel just doesn't sit right in that many times in the VN, she would ask how she could help, offer to fight, or she would do things behind the scenes, despite her condition. That's why I never really thought it was dark and edgy, at least compared to the stuff in the other routes, its just like "well, you put the literal devil into a tortured child, what the fuck do you think will happen?" Certainly no more worse than "lel, let's keep the dried husks of orphans down here for ten years for kicks" or "lemme cut the eyes out of a kid, then stab and rub their heart out because mongrels".

I wasn't talking about Shirou in HF vs. Shirou in Prisma, I meant Prisma as a whole, with Illya refusing to sacrifice either Miyu or the World even though she didn't have a clear solution to either. She refused to give up her friend or her morals in the face of a villain presenting a false dichotemy, whereas Shirou in HF seemingly went ahead and did exactly that. Yes, Kirei might've engineered the situation to make it seem like a binary choice between Sakura and being a hero, but Shirou is ultimately the one who chose to throw one of these things away rather than pursue both, at least that is my current understanding of it, if he's still intending to be a hero of justice after all this, then I'm thrilled, but from what I've heard that is not the ultimate end of his position in HF.

If Sakura is less of a damsel in the VN then that is also a positive, but then this thread is for the movies, where she doesn't do those things up until she goes full Dark Sakura after ganking Shinji. So if that's just a case of the VN having done it better and the movie not living up, that's good to know, but it doesn't help the experience of the films if Shirou has in every other instance fought against the astronomical odds to help others even when faced with a seemingly impossible task, only to fall here of all places.

[Laserman]

I wasn't talking about Shirou in HF vs. Shirou in Prisma, I meant Prisma as a whole, with Illya refusing to sacrifice either Miyu or the World even though she didn't have a clear solution to either. She refused to give up her friend or her morals in the face of a villain presenting a false dichotemy, whereas Shirou in HF seemingly went ahead and did exactly that. Yes, Kirei might've engineered the situation to make it seem like a binary choice between Sakura and being a hero, but Shirou is ultimately the one who chose to throw one of these things away rather than pursue both, at least that is my current understanding of it, if he's still intending to be a hero of justice after all this, then I'm thrilled, but from what I've heard that is not the ultimate end of his position in HF.

If Sakura is less of a damsel in the VN then that is also a positive, but then this thread is for the movies, where she doesn't do those things up until she goes full Dark Sakura after ganking Shinji. So if that's just a case of the VN having done it better and the movie not living up, that's good to know, but it doesn't help the experience of the films if Shirou has in every other instance fought against the astronomical odds to help others even when faced with a seemingly impossible task, only to fall here of all places.

Yeah, this pretty much matches up with what I think.

[yokushi]

I wasn't talking about Shirou in HF vs. Shirou in Prisma, I meant Prisma as a whole, with Illya refusing to sacrifice either Miyu or the World even though she didn't have a clear solution to either. She refused to give up her friend or her morals in the face of a villain presenting a false dichotemy, whereas Shirou in HF seemingly went ahead and did exactly that. Yes, Kirei might've engineered the situation to make it seem like a binary choice between Sakura and being a hero, but Shirou is ultimately the one who chose to throw one of these things away rather than pursue both, at least that is my current understanding of it, if he's still intending to be a hero of justice after all this, then I'm thrilled, but from what I've heard that is not the ultimate end of his position in HF.

If Sakura is less of a damsel in the VN then that is also a positive, but then this thread is for the movies, where she doesn't do those things up until she goes full Dark Sakura after ganking Shinji. So if that's just a case of the VN having done it better and the movie not living up, that's good to know, but it doesn't help the experience of the films if Shirou has in every other instance fought against the astronomical odds to help others even when faced with a seemingly impossible task, only to fall here of all places.

I think you are missing a part of the point. The problem with Shirou, and this is something the VN shows far better, is that he is such a distorted machine person that he can't really reach a compromise at all. The choice he is given in HF breaks his ideal regardless of what he does, because he is faced with: 1) an utilitarian option that leads to him literally destroying his own emotions and turning into steel 2) following his own newfound feelings even if that leads him to doom. The entire point of the route is about muddled gray areas and moral quandaries, and how subjective answers are.

He is not a saint nor a sinner, he is a person. Shirou is not really "falling", HF is just a situation that literally breaks him and he is forced to choose his own personal intimate feelings, and during that process he is reborn and becomes a less distorted person as a result. It's kind of another extreme situation like the fire ten years ago. This is the entire circle of his character arc in a way.

[GarlandGreene]

with Illya refusing to sacrifice either Miyu or the World even though she didn't have a clear solution to either.

It's almost like she's the typical protagonist of a Mahou Shoujo series...

[Altima of the Gates]

I wasn't talking about Shirou in HF vs. Shirou in Prisma, I meant Prisma as a whole, with Illya refusing to sacrifice either Miyu or the World even though she didn't have a clear solution to either. She refused to give up her friend or her morals in the face of a villain presenting a false dichotemy, whereas Shirou in HF seemingly went ahead and did exactly that. Yes, Kirei might've engineered the situation to make it seem like a binary choice between Sakura and being a hero, but Shirou is ultimately the one who chose to throw one of these things away rather than pursue both, at least that is my current understanding of it, if he's still intending to be a hero of justice after all this, then I'm thrilled, but from what I've heard that is not the ultimate end of his position in HF.

If Sakura is less of a damsel in the VN then that is also a positive, but then this thread is for the movies, where she doesn't do those things up until she goes full Dark Sakura after ganking Shinji. So if that's just a case of the VN having done it better and the movie not living up, that's good to know, but it doesn't help the experience of the films if Shirou has in every other instance fought against the astronomical odds to help others even when faced with a seemingly impossible task, only to fall here of all places.

Even if you put this purely by what you know in the movies, Shirou has no idea how to do both or go about it. There isn't a convenient object to smash here that he knows of, and only one villain to fight that is hard to gauge how to attack. Ilya in Prisma moves forward as a magical girl does with guts and determination, but she has an object to smash against, or at least what seems to be the thing she needs to smash.
Further, Shirou is working to bring about an end to the conflict, and puts his body on the line for that. He doesn't just sit around and have a good meal and a chat. And like yokushi says, you (and Laserman too, apparently) completely miss that Shirou is a distorted human being, you should see as much in UBW, because a human shouldn't say, "I'm fine being a machine" because you can hurt just as many as you help. You are then just a vehicle for an ideal, not exactly what a hero, or a human being, should be. Rather than thinking that this story is a different Shirou, you are just seeing him in a different situation.

Suffice to say, his allies have their own hangups, and he needs those allies. Sakura is unwittingly a good cover for Kirei and Zouken to hide their designs. Hell, Rin misses a couple critical elements primarily because Sakura has such a large bullseye painted on her.

And it should be obvious even Sakura has been the one to help out in the sidelines(they kept one of the scenes iirc, where Medusa tells Shirou that if Sakura uses her too much it'd kill her). Who did you think sent Rider when she beat Cursed Arm's ass? Think about what that meant to do that. Obviously Sakura can't just fight Zouken, because that would be a poor decision for her and anyone around her, and by the time she does have that power, the power she gained already is corroding her mind.
Her situation is different in that there isn't an easy way to go about helping. The VN showed this by her saying little things like "there isn't anything I can do with my power to help with Archer's arm, but I'll talk to Rider about it", little things like that.
But these things were cut for time, though much of it remains if you pay attention.

[TheSeaDragon]

It's almost like she's the typical protagonist of a Mahou Shoujo series...

touche, lol

[Laserman]

It's almost like she's the typical protagonist of a Mahou Shoujo series...

What does that even mean?

Even if you put this purely by what you know in the movies, Shirou has no idea how to do both or go about it. There isn't a convenient object to smash here that he knows of, and only one villain to fight that is hard to gauge how to attack. Ilya in Prisma moves forward as a magical girl does with guts and determination, but she has an object to smash against, or at least what seems to be the thing she needs to smash.

It sounds like you're saying that him trying to do anything is pointless.

Further, Shirou is working to bring about an end to the conflict, and puts his body on the line for that. He doesn't just sit around and have a good meal and a chat

Yeah?

And like yokushi says, you (and Laserman too, apparently) completely miss that Shirou is a distorted human being, you should see as much in UBW, because a human shouldn't say, "I'm fine being a machine" because you can hurt just as many as you help. You are then just a vehicle for an ideal, not exactly what a hero, or a human being, should be. Rather than thinking that this story is a different Shirou, you are just seeing him in a different situation.

I'm missing what? Like I posted in the UBW thread, and no one said anything about me missing anything then.

Suffice to say, his allies have their own hangups, and he needs those allies. Sakura is unwittingly a good cover for Kirei and Zouken to hide their designs. Hell, Rin misses a couple critical elements primarily because Sakura has such a large bullseye painted on her.

What allies? It just seems like he's so alone compared to before.

And it should be obvious even Sakura has been the one to help out in the sidelines(they kept one of the scenes iirc, where Medusa tells Shirou that if Sakura uses her too much it'd kill her).

I don't remember that either, and it's really not.

Obviously Sakura can't just fight Zouken, because that would be a poor decision for her and anyone around her

How?

But these things were cut for time, though much of it remains if you pay attention.

I really doubt that, like I still think Hawkeye's right.

[TheSeaDragon]

what it means is HF theme is "ideals clashing with reality" and it was foreshadowed by kirtisugus quotes, is not a more typical superhero or magical girl story were a similar conflict maybe is presented but MC ends succeding and saving everyone and eveything, not that there is anything wrong with these stories, but if theme idealism cahllenged is not for you, te the rute i not for you, doesnt matter if sakura is more proactive or anything
By the way, hawk, i dont think the third movie will change your opinion so much, but watch it so you can have a compete judgement, and also try to play the VN

For anyone wo already watched the trilogy , i found a nice video

[Hawkeye]

By the way, hawk, i dont think the third movie will change your opinion so much, but watch it so you can have a compete judgement, and also try to play the VN

I plan to do both, but time and IRL stuff are always a factor. XD

I think these conversations highlight my fundamental problem with stories like this. People talk about reality vs. idealism and how the two clash and, in the case of HF, reality seemingly winning out, but idealism is literally the foundation of our reality. I mean I'm typing this on a screen and sending it around the world to be critiqued by people I've never met because generations of people bet on idealism vs. reality. If not for that I'd be scribbling this in pictographs on a cave wall.

So talking about HF, people make rationalisations about it, about how Kirei manipulated the situation, how Shirou doesn't have a clear path forward or how his fundamental ideal is gonna fail against reality and while all that might be true, it seems like a weakness of the writing in my opinion that this distorted machine person fights gods, heroes and monsters in battles that should be fundamentally unwinnable by his broke ass self and succeeds, but present this false dichotemy of Sakura and the Shadow as if this should be the thing that breaks the machine. Like this is the one wrench in the works that should halt his advance compared to all the other crap he's dealt with in the other routes. Why is it that fighting Kirei, Gilgamesh and the manifesting grail the other times was apparently an achieveable goal for the machine that is Shirou Emiya, but fighting the Shadow for a few days until the grail wore out wasn't? He'd already survived like two encounters with the thing by this point, and yeah, resources on his side are running low, down three servants and Rider kinda crippled, but the odds always look steep and that never stopped him before. I guess I just prefer the stories where idealism wins out, so HF isn't for me.

[Gyrad1]

is the video essay worth watching given that a) his pronunciation of names is bad and b) hasn't read the source material

[yokushi]

I think these conversations highlight my fundamental problem with stories like this. People talk about reality vs. idealism and how the two clash and, in the case of HF, reality seemingly winning out, but idealism is literally the foundation of our reality. I mean I'm typing this on a screen and sending it around the world to be critiqued by people I've never met because generations of people bet on idealism vs. reality. If not for that I'd be scribbling this in pictographs on a cave wall.

Idealism is not the only thing that moves humanity around though, all kind of ideas do, idealism is just another one of those. And like all those ideas they don't represent some kind of higher concept or state, they are just human constructs that are all valid. Actually, in a way HF is the most human route because is the route that directly posits a question about the value people have, even if sometimes everything could seem meaningless. That's a theme with Shirou, Sakura, Illya, Kotomine and even Angra Mainyu. All of them have value as people, more than the ideas they represent, their own believes or mistakes. Humans are a combination of good and bad things and that's fine. There is this line later that is a minor spoiler that puts it into words.

Spoiler:

In a way, HF is the most positive route too because of that. It's not realism in a cynical way, if anything it's about how absolutes don't really exist and even ideals can become destructive for you and everyone else in some situations, and sometimes you have to part with them and be your own thing. It doesn't really negate anything before, it informs it.

So talking about HF, people make rationalisations about it, about how Kirei manipulated the situation, how Shirou doesn't have a clear path forward or how his fundamental ideal is gonna fail against reality and while all that might be true, it seems like a weakness of the writing in my opinion that this distorted machine person fights gods, heroes and monsters in battles that should be fundamentally unwinnable by his broke ass self and succeeds, but present this false dichotemy of Sakura and the Shadow as if this should be the thing that breaks the machine. Like this is the one wrench in the works that should halt his advance compared to all the other crap he's dealt with in the other routes. Why is it that fighting Kirei, Gilgamesh and the manifesting grail the other times was apparently an achieveable goal for the machine that is Shirou Emiya, but fighting the Shadow for a few days until the grail wore out wasn't? He'd already survived like two encounters with the thing by this point, and yeah, resources on his side are running low, down three servants and Rider kinda crippled, but the odds always look steep and that never stopped him before. I guess I just prefer the stories where idealism wins out, so HF isn't for me.

Yeah, because the difference here is that never in those situations Shirou had to sacrifice his own personal feelings and desire for happiness in the process. But being fucked up is what makes Emiya Shirou an interesting character. One of the main paradoxes of Emiya Shirou is the actual reason why he carries the mask of Kiritsugu's ideals. He clinged into it because he saw Kiritsugu smiling and, Shirou being completely void at that point in the fire, desperately latched onto them because unconsciously he thought they were going to make him happy like Kiritsugu was there (even more ironic when you know what just happened to Kiritsugu). But then Kiritsugu died and he started developing his own sense of happiness with Sakura and Taiga around, and those ultimately clash in a Catch-22. There is a scene in UBW where this almost happens too, when Caster kidnaps Taiga.

There is also a reason why Nasu said that while UBW provides an answer, HF is a practical application of the same answer. UBW is not really about idealism winning or making ideals yours, it's about being a fake not really mattering and the value in the inherent beauty of the idea. The results were never really the point, Shirou defeating Gilgamesh is not about a triumphing idealism against evil but about fakes having value on its own too faced with the original (a theme about value that as I said, HF also shares).

And well I think you should finish the route before going about the odds and the meaning of the final fights because there is a lot to unpack there in HF case. And it goes for all the main cast, Shirou included. There is a whole thematic equivalent there you are missing right now.

is the video essay worth watching given that a) his pronunciation of names is bad and b) hasn't read the source material

It's a suprisingly good analysis that gets across most of the points resolved in the finale. So I would say it's worth a watch.

[GarlandGreene]

it seems like a weakness of the writing in my opinion that this distorted machine person fights gods, heroes and monsters in battles that should be fundamentally unwinnable by his broke ass self and succeeds

It always felt to me that Shirou's fighting abilities are almost entirely symbolic and that they are not meant to be taken at face value. Despite the series' heavy focus on tabletop RPG style stats with all of the Servants and stuff, there's a lot that points to Shirou's growth as a magus being a parallel and clever way of spelling out his development as a character. In the prologue, this is demonstrated by his weak and ineffective attempts at defending himself from Lancer, mirroring his then idealistic stance of wanting to save everyone. This contrasts greatly later with his successful use of Projection only when he finally sets his mind on saving both Sakura and Illya does he gain control over his powers. The progression of his projection magic in UBW can also be seen that way whether it's Shirou adopting Archer’s principles while rejecting certain parts of it and replacing it with his own (as per the 2 UBW chants that differ slightly) or him successfully projecting UBW only after making peace with the potential results of his ideals. In HF, his projection is represented by Archer's arm where his past self/Archer literally conflicts within him to the point of severe injury, with the act of Shirou receiving an arm transplant from him being more than a matter of upgrade: it's Shirou confronting his past while steadfastly holding on to the present.

[Kohakura]

What allies? It just seems like he's so alone compared to before.

Ilya and Rin? Both of them have their duties as members of the Einzberns and Tohsakas distracting them from doing the right thing, much like how Shirou's ideals were urging him to betray Sakura. At first, Ilya just sees Sakura as a rival grail (the black kite thing she talks about at the end of the first movie) and a lowly Matou before getting to know her and starting to sympathize with her as a result, and Rin is too preoccupied with her role as the supervisor of Fuyuki to see Sakura as much more than a threat once the truth about her is revealed (to be fair, this was toned down heavily in the movies).

I don't remember that either, and it's really not.

Seems like an attention span thing on your end. After the second movie, it's pretty clear how Sakura is trying to help Shirou with the grail war without her secrets being exposed during the first movie. See her being shocked by Shirou's command seal and asking him to return home from school as soon as he can, or Rider coming to save Shirou from Zouken followed by Sakura worriedly waiting for Shirou in the snow.

How?

Remember Kariya? Sakura has good reason to be worried about the others fighting Zouken for her sake.

it seems like a weakness of the writing in my opinion that this distorted machine person fights gods, heroes and monsters in battles that should be fundamentally unwinnable by his broke ass self and succeeds, but present this false dichotemy of Sakura and the Shadow as if this should be the thing that breaks the machine. Like this is the one wrench in the works that should halt his advance compared to all the other crap he's dealt with in the other routes. Why is it that fighting Kirei, Gilgamesh and the manifesting grail the other times was apparently an achieveable goal for the machine that is Shirou Emiya, but fighting the Shadow for a few days until the grail wore out wasn't? He'd already survived like two encounters with the thing by this point, and yeah, resources on his side are running low, down three servants and Rider kinda crippled, but the odds always look steep and that never stopped him before. I guess I just prefer the stories where idealism wins out, so HF isn't for me.

Gilgamesh, Kirei and the manifested grail are powerful, but they're still physical beings that can be defeated with enough force. The shadow is literally intangible at first, and eventually starts bringing Sakura along with it, meaning all you can do to fight it is to kill Sakura. Gilgamesh's fight against the shadow is basically there to show why fighting the shadow head-on is completely impossible no matter what. It's not a weakness of the writing, it's the writing rising above shounen clichés and forcing the characters to confront a scenario that can't be overcome by brute force or pure resolve like in the past two routes.

[Hawkeye]

Gilgamesh, Kirei and the manifested grail are powerful, but they're still physical beings that can be defeated with enough force. The shadow is literally intangible at first, and eventually starts bringing Sakura along with it, meaning all you can do to fight it is to kill Sakura. Gilgamesh's fight against the shadow is basically there to show why fighting the shadow head-on is completely impossible no matter what. It's not a weakness of the writing, it's the writing rising above shounen clichés and forcing the characters to confront a scenario that can't be overcome by brute force or pure resolve like in the past two routes.

Okay, I think you and Garland are missing my point. It's not about Shirou's actual combat abilities or what he is physically capable of doing, it's his mindset like Garland said. It doesn't matter that Kirei, Gil and the manifesting grail are all physical entities that can technically be defeated, standing in front of the latter two is like trying to fight a hurricane head-on. It's not something that any rational person, especially one of Shirou's meager ability would consider remotely possible. This is literally the realm of myths and legends where the laws of logic don't apply as they should and yet facing these things, Shirou was all like "Cool, I got this. Might be a stretch, but I'll go for it." even when all logical reasoning would say no, bro, you suck and golden boy is gonna turn you into a pin cushion. So why is the Shadow, just a different type of insurrmountable opponent suddenly an exception to this rule? Why can the distorted machine think it can function fighting the King of Heroes, Kirei the evil bastard and the overflowing grail, but the creepy murder duster is suddenly too much for him to rally against? You can rationalise that Gil's defeat justifies this, but Shirou didn't actually see that, hell he only sees Gilgamesh twice in passing and has no concept of his combat abilities in the HF route, so even hearing that he got defeated would be meaningless to him.

I'm not saying it isn't a good story, I am really enjoying it and I've liked it so far, but looking at it in the context of the other two routes, I don't understand why Shirou is suddenly out of options now when the other times he was happy to charge in despite negligible odds of success. You can tell me that it's defying shounen clichés and such, but that only explains the thematic of the story, it doesn't explain why a character whose entire modus opperandi is to be a walking shounen cliché is giving up in a scenario where by every metric we've seen him pull to this point, he should be trying to brute force it and resolve his way to victory. Maybe it is better explained in the VN, but like I said before, going off what the movies have shown me thus far, I don't get why Hero of Justice Shirou Emiya is suffering a critical meltdown here instead of still trying to smash his head against the wall.