Fate/Grand Order General Discussion (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[Synaptic Star]

If you shift stuff around so Quick turns into the damage one it's kind of a boring solution that takes on Buster's role, but I suppose it would at least still give Buster the slot of farming without caring about node composition.

There might be a problem with "instability". To explain what I mean think back to third anniversary with Skadi. She 'saved quick' by creating the looping meta. However, "logically" arts would be a more fitting card type to loop which eventually led to Castoria taking that niche. Since "logically" buster would be the fitting card to do the most damage, it may led to a future buster support that takes that niche, putting quick back to square one. Then again, as manafusion showed, quick nps have always had the highest damage, it could be rationalized that "logically" quick having the highest damage is fitting, making things "stable".

[manafusion]

In terms of NP, having:

Buster: Consistent loop/enemy counts do not matter.
Arts: Ease of access/reliant on enemy count.
Quick: Burst damage/highly reliant on enemy count to loop.

would make more sense since Quick should not be made to compete in the same plane as Buster or Arts just because it has NP refund. It would at least give Quick the extra oomph to be considered a "standalone good option" because they'd do overall more damage than Buster or Arts with equivalent value of buffs while not being as easy to access looping as the other two. Quick Servants may not loop as well but, if you needed more damage for your 90++ setup, then you now would consider Quick NPs for the damage.

[Kamera]

Quick is the still the best for Face Card damage DPS, at least. One way to make them more useful is to implement a consistent way to farm just with Face Cards without the RNG factors.

[Synaptic Star]

AOE face cards?

[Kamera]

Right, something like what Olga seem to have. That, or a more accessible Card Management options beyond more RNG (shuffling). Something like Summer BB card freeze, Artoria's card type conversion, or Olga's card monopoly.

[GDB]

Consistency in general should be Quick's thing. Face card selection/freezing/rerolling, skill cooldowns, etc. It already has it a bit by having 2 baseline buffers without support for when selecting one isn't an option, and adding this third would give it yet another to plugsuit to.

Could even make it the "toolbox" color by propping up Servants with special NP effects (Melt's buff strip, Astolfo's NP seal, MHXA's anti Saber, etc etc). With 3 baseline buffers (after this hypothetical one), your damage dealer could be your support so it'd be potentially easier to grab NP5s and the like without breaking the bank every time you need an alternate option. Though that alone might be the death knell for anything helping Quick at this point.

[Sath]

But NP strength is the worst buff though?
ATK buff affect every card
Q/B/A buff affect every card AND secondary values (NP gain, star gen etc.)
NP strength just affect NP damage

Why would you want NP strength over ATK buff/Card Type buff?

Vast majority of Quick DPS lack NP strength buffs in their kit, meaning that part of thr triangle is their weakness for their NP damage calculstion. Additionally it's the most valuable buff type so long as atk/card up still have some reasonable values due to Oberon's s3 doubling its value on nuke.

NP damage is (simplified):

Atkmod(up to 500%)+def down (up to -100%)X Cardmod (up to 500%)+res down (up to -100%)X Type 3 (NP damage up to 500 % / Pmod up to 1000%)X traitmod (cap is NP/character specific)X Attribute mod (0.9-1.1x) X Class advantage.

Too lazy to quote but I agree. You can make Quick loop better and you can make a sustain quick Support like Merlin is for buster, but again, will that make anything different? The best stall will still be Arts with Artoria and refun looping will be Arts, with refund independent NP spam being Buster. Sure, a way to make them work on the same terms would be fine enough but I want a unique niche, not a "now you can be almost as good as your Artoria team or your Koyanskaya team but green"

The point isn't to be the best, the point is to be playable. Quick can be a middle ground, or it can have stupid effects based on stars abive 50 (which is more the realm of higher hitcounts like Chatlemagne/Atalanta although S.Skadi's regen evens things out).

There is no guarantee a buff to Quick = still not worth choosing. The whole point is Quick should be buffed to be on the same level as Arts and Buster because Quick is ~1/3 of the game's roster.
Why should you be punished for liking Charlemagne or Douman or Dantes? Why should your team performance be completely 2nd rate no matter how many NP levels, grails and relevant supports you invest in?

Buster isn't inherently stally but it has some slowplay tools. It can also fall back onto a Merlin+Castoria backrow in an emergency/if blitz fails and that will safely carry a Busterbpoint Servant through the battle.
Quick has no Green slowplay anything and so even if you play mixed Skadi/Castoria as your 3t window dies you're playing the shittest version of extend and your team is probably going to fall apart anyway.

On the flipside Quick ST has flat out bad NP refund and needs to crit with Green cards to loop - but its current support pushes Red so it's more like "I need to bar break with NP then Quick crit or go NPBQ with crits" to secure a loop.
It's an okay middle ground on damage potential between Arts/Buster because Arts generally speaking doesn't do crits (with exceptions) but it has the lowest consistency by far in all content and no gameplay diversification.

Koyan/Oberon may be the best way to fastplay Buster but it has other choices. It's better at multi DPS teams than Quick e.g. KoyanDark or Medb + Arash + DPS / Oberon + Oberon. It's better at crits. It's better at looping one DPS. It's better at extending from a 3t blitz. Not just a little bit better, categorically better at all of these because even if S.Skadi has more team steroids she can't actually run a multi DPS team - you have to give up CE slots.

Am I saying Quick neess to be > Buster? No, I'm saying it should have a comparable level of play. Quick feels 3rd rate no matter how you spin it. Buster was like this before Koyan came out, so there's no reason they can't solve this by releasing actual support and some actuslly good Quick CEs whole they're at it.

[Formless Creature]

I think I agree. It would be nice if Quick had an unique identity, but at this point, I think people would just prefer if their favorite Servants had comparable performance, independently of what color they have. Having to play second-fiddle because you have the epic green button isn't fun, and I think any buff is acceptable even if it just turns Quick into "green Arts" or whatever. Accomplish that first, and an unique gameplay style can come later.

[Sath]

Consistency in general should be Quick's thing. Face card selection/freezing/rerolling, skill cooldowns, etc.

Thing is Quick doesn't have strong support for its QQAA servants and all you described RE: manipulation belongs to Buster/Arts. BBkini & Bunnytoria (lol) belong to Buster. U-Olga with her stack own hand effect is supposed to be Arts with Buster crit going by the NPC.
Cd reduction? Tamamoface specialty, Tama for Arts stall, Koyan for enabling Buster blitz.

You could build a support with an effect like U-Olga's where it targets 1 Servant and you draw all their cards. It's possible to build a setup that relies on mix of card crits/AOe cards/NPs for consistency.

But as said the key is you shouldn't be punished for playing Quick. It should be equally effective for daily content and it shouldn't be the one card type with 0 supports offering extend tools when 3t blitz doesn't hit.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

An idea; Quick facecards gain multiplier on Damage and NP Gain based on amount of stars at the start of turn(10 stars=5%, 20 stars=10%, and so on). Ideal mechanic to compete with Buster and Arts respectively.

[Gold Experience]

The only solution I see so far is to enable NP criticals, both damage and support. With endgame hp inflation values, break bar guts and stuff, it wouldn't really break anything (any more it's been already broken). Adjust the values across the grid and give Quick the highest modifier. It will handle excessive stars and boost Quick's competitiveness without making it into Arts/Buster 0.5.

[Sath]

Are you seeing that as 1t pmod or a 1t flat addition to the card's raw damage multiplier? E.g. 10 stars EoT = +5% pmod using Quick, or 10 stars EoT = 0.85 base damage multiplier in slot 1?

If this went all the way to 99 (=100) then the likes of Charlemagne would essentially have a Buster 1st card bonus on Quicks. It props up NPQQ or NPAQ hands, although I wouldn't say it closes the gap that much with Buster having 1.5x base and the 1st card bonus bumping them to 2x slot 1, but it certainly helps.

Mighty chains are great but a flaw for non-S.Skadi abusers (i.e. QQAA and QQQ decks) is they typically won't trigger mighty chains on NP turns so they don't have that Buster 1st card bonus, and they'd really rather use vanilla Skadi for CQs.

For instance I'd prefer DSS+Castoria for Douman's damage+refund consistency, especially with his own 100 crit. Because of that their card damage gap is a bit wider than the QQBB/BBB crew, in exchange for better NP consistency I guess - but their issue is more that NewSkadi doesn't love them.

If pmod it probably pushes Quick face cards minimally crit value wise, but dicks on Arts/Buster NP damage averages.

All said, prior to S.Skadi taking preference for running at 2, NPQQ hands were always good enough. You just had the issue that Skadi had no star bomb so you need skills/CE for turn 1, and the loop is usually predicated on drawing 1 of your Q cards and critting. Good enough for 1M+ HP bars of today? Probably with advantage or MHXA; I walked over the 2.8M Gugalana tower raid with Kama back when that was a thing with own Servants. Skadi+Bride+BBkini to lock the NPQQ hand.

The gain buff helps consistency (I presume you mean that as 1t 5% NP gain per 10 stars, as 5-50% flat gain on the cardmod is worthless) much more for AoE, who need it less in challenge content relatively speaking.
Both because they refund more than ST (most hit 20% refund, 30 bracket with gain buffs, 40 for the lucky few like MHXA), and they gen more stars. It's tough to consistency stay over 50 stars for many ST without S.Skadi's star regen.

It's very much Quick ST who need additional measures (and nerfed into the ground AoE like CARmilla, Sei etc) to get their NP consistency up. The low refund means if they don't draw the right crit card they need more than 50% battery to fire again unkess attacked.

Old Skadi actually has the best overall damage buff total with A. Kscopes and B. NP levels. 2x 5t 20-30 atk and 3 hits 50-100 crit smooths damage out a ton, the issue is consistency.

People talk shit about Quick damage but MHXA is the highest damage Berserker on NP without her Good pmod, barring Georgios+Kriemhild. But if counting trait (Saber) she rinses everyone including Kriem Vs Dragon. Trouble is Kintoki/Vlad are way more consistent.

In farming, refund ignored, I don't think Quick NPs typically do less damage. But less Quick Servants have loaded kits - as in the top end of the card types' roster they lose out.

Buster dominates the high buff total field and Oberon happens to give 50 buster on his big nuke button. Quick tends not to have the right buff ratio due to low type 3 buffs in kits and no type 3 buffs on their supports.

---

Flat regen of 20% & an NP gain buff would fix up all but the likes of CARmilla to very workable values tbh.

[Aozaki-desu]

Aozaki really liked Johanna so I'm sure he'll be happy with the news.

She cute but like
Kuku to the left
Pope to the right
Director beyong the horizon
Arcade collab
And me, sitting comfy on my 330 rolls
the path is unclear

[manafusion]

All this talk about Quick face cards not having an identity but I think they already gained one. The fact that Quick First is a 20% crit chance to all non-Extra cards in the attack is a strong identity. More of a support identity, sure, but it really makes more sense when Quick isn't meant to be unga bunga damage (Buster) or NP gauge filler (Arts). The fact that an argument one would make against it is "we have CEs to do a similar job" is testament to how much power it has since it means that you could remove one of those CEs for another supportive CE (like Bodhisattva) to allow for Quick First to perform a similar role. Also, it allows Zerkers and Avengers to have a chance to crit where they normally can't due to not having high base Star Weight and no Star Attraction.

EDIT: I really don't think Quick is in a bad spot now. I think you guys are just wanting Quick to stand on it's own but that's like saying that we should have a Servant card deck that's has no Buster/Arts and Lasengle has proven that they won't ever do it since we don't have a deck without Quick/Arts/Buster in 7+ years. Since we also have Mighty chains now, Quick has already been proving it's performance time and time again by being a great assist card. QAB/QBA with +20% crit chance, boosts Arts and Buster's card position for value and helps generates more stars for next turn? Big support value.

[Oz1337]

She cute but like
Kuku to the left
Pope to the right
Director beyong the horizon
Arcade collab
And me, sitting comfy on my 330 rolls
the path is unclear

Aozaki, have you checked what numbers Kukulkan gives if we assume that the one we use from story is going to be what we're going to get from the gatcha?

[Aozaki-desu]

i havent done any numbers, not even on nito
i could update np table if you link me kuku's atlas page

[Oz1337]

Here you go:

https://apps.atlasacademy.io/db/JP/servant/9944370

[Nikiri]

Kukulkan feels stupidly strong with double Koyan, if she was a standard class instead of a Foreigner...



also 1200+ new post in the main chapter thread...... eh...

[Aozaki-desu]

done

[Oz1337]

done

Thanks!