Lord El-Melloi II Case Files

[Formless Creature]

his worldbuilding relies on Nasu vomiting up his lore into his dirty, filthy mouth like a mother bird.

damn alright

[fearboss]

It's a good thing we can all remember that Nasu greenlights the things Sanda writes before they're published.

[ImaginaryIdjit]

I just want Sanda to make a reference to a Magus that's never appeared in a Nasu story yet and will never appear ever, in a similar style to how he references actual characters.

That paragraph would be nowhere near as bad if Kiritsugu's name was replaced by like, Quandarius Gooch or something, so that it didn't feel so forced and contradictory.

[Formless Creature]

Like others have said, the most likely reason is because he wanted us to have Kiritsugu in mind, specifically. There were probably more elegant ways to do it that didn't involve making Kerry seem like magus doomguy but I'm not SUPER mad about it. I just think it's funny.

[ImaginaryIdjit]

Well, in this specific instance there's an actual reason to reference Kerry, but that just makes me more critical of it since it's actually somewhat plot relevant.

It's really dumb how the Clock Tower made self-defense class mandatory so that the students would be able to fight off Magi hunters, who work in the interests of the Clock Tower most of the time because they hunt rogue magi.

It doesn't affect the plot in a major capacity so I'm not mad yet, but it does make me think a little bit less of the writing.

[SaberRoy]

I honestly figured the mundane self defence classes was only a Modern Magecraft requirement created by Waver--since he, of everyone, knows magecraft isn't everything as well as Modern Magecraft having a lot of new agers who both have less of an advantage with Magecraft and are likely more easily manipulated by the higher crust and so could use any advantage they can get (Plus he's also deep down emotionality invested in most of his students well being). It would even work with the reference to Kerry as Waver obviously has PTSD from the war and Kerry is ultimately who killed Keyneth, and works with Rin, Luvia and Flat having been known in the class as they are either in his department or he is their personal tutor.

Can't imagine Reines would like being hit by that requirement though.

[All fictions]

It wouldn't make sense as a modern requirement invented by Waver. There is plenty evidence that knowing how to defend yourself makes sense in the world of magecraft, especially with how cutthroat the Clock Tower's culture is:

Even a magus cannot neglect to train their body.

One of the requirements for a magus is to have excellent physical abilities.

"Ha―――you're a magus and you're fighting bare-handed...!?"

"Sorry...! But self-defense is required knowledge for magi nowadays...!"

"In the pursuit of honing their skills, the Clock Tower all but encourages magi to fight each other. If they didn't, they would have no way to see other magi's magecraft for themselves. There are even those who would see a situation like this as the best possible outcome. Of course, the Faculty of Law puts more emphasis on keeping order within the Clock Tower than with mystery, but even they probably wouldn't consider this a failure. Ha, you can't even call them police."

Almost any magus was prepared to risk their life in such a battle. Even if the battlefield was a poor medium for the exercise of their specific magecraft, the honing of instinct, the drawing forth of the will to fight, the situation that forced the individual to push themselves to the limit of their own life and strength were fertile ground for the development of magecraft.

El-Melloi II (Reines):
Combat ability is a fundamental for magi, after all.
Especially since the Clock Tower encourages settling issues by duels.

Just the culture encouraging and approving of duels and assassination attempts being common justify the existence of such a class.

(Note that Waver also doesn't learn who killed Kayneth until the last arc of Case Files, btw)

[You]

I honestly figured the mundane self defence classes was only a Modern Magecraft requirement created by Waver--since he, of everyone, knows magecraft isn't everything as well as Modern Magecraft having a lot of new agers who both have less of an advantage with Magecraft and are likely more easily manipulated by the higher crust and so could use any advantage they can get

I wish Sanda cooked more and, for instance, made the real reason petty
In the formerly elective self-defense class, Mystile now includes Kiritsugu tactics classes in the general curriculum so they can repeatedly dunk on Kayneth while proclaiming their commitment to ALL MAGI LIVES
Some smear campaign like that to forever rub salt in the Aristocratic faction's wounds while "showing" how the Dems advance magi culture

[tsugumi]

I honestly figured the mundane self defence classes was only a Modern Magecraft requirement created by Waver--since he, of everyone, knows magecraft isn't everything as well as Modern Magecraft having a lot of new agers who both have less of an advantage with Magecraft and are likely more easily manipulated by the higher crust and so could use any advantage they can get

please don't remind me that most of our named ~New Agers~ come from old families and we've never seen an ordinary new bloodline benefit from his radical teachings, it's depressing

[Kamera]

Yeah, Waver really started as someone who made "mages don't need no bloodline advantage" as his whole motivation to being someone who only exclusively raise and teach mages with extensive bloodline history. What a class traitor.

[Nanaya]

Sanda currently trying to get the "Avoiding Death" classes taught by DAA at CM university greenlit for the next fanfic.

[Leftovers]

Kiritsugu tactics classes

that's the thing tho

"Even worse than that in nature. He is a freelancing assassin who underwent special training to kill magi. Because only magi are most comprehensive of other magi, he will use methods most incompatible with the rules of magi to kill other magi... he is the sort of man who will utilize despicable measures nonchalantly."
[...]
While reading, Kirei began to gradually understand why Tokiomi hates this man. Ambush and assassination was only the tip of the iceberg.
Planting a bomb in public, striking down an airplane with many passengers on board; these were the type of unbelievable cases reported. It is also extrapolated that the tragedies of the past reported as major acts of terrorism were in fact the criminal acts of Emiya Kiritsugu for the sake of killing one magus. Although there is no convictive evidence, looking at the information given, it is a very believable story.
Assassin; that word is very befitting. Magi opposing each other to the point of killing each other, these scenarios are common. However, it is purely a competition of magecraft and usually decided through a series of processes that abide certain combat regulations. Saying it like that, the Heaven's Feel also belongs in this category; although called a 'war,' it is not a chaotic death match, but rather a series of strict rules and regulations exist.
There isn't even a single line of text recording Kiritsugu having undergone a battle like this, using the 'regulations of magi'.
"The thing called magus exists outside of human law to begin with, and that's all the more reason to strictly obey the rules of our own world."
Tokiomi said so, his calm voice seething with anger.
"But this man Emiya completely ignores all rules. He does not have a bit of pride as a magus. This kind of man is unforgivable."

They were state-of-art and highly efficient, but apart from that, they were nothing but conventional weapons. Nothing that could store prana.
That was the heresy that earned the magus Emiya Kiritsugu the nickname of "magus killer."
The weak point of the people called magi was usually negligence from arrogance. They believe in their own mysteries and knowledge. They never doubt that the only threat to them beside God cannot be anything other than a magus like them.
That is why, in battle, they are sensitive to nothing but traces of magecraft. To detect any kind of trivial skill. Hence they train their perception of magecraft, and think of counter-measures against those skills as derisive― That's a theory no magus strays from.
As a result, they ignore any attack that is purely physical and void of magecraft as secondary menace. They have no fear of the sharpest knife, the strongest bullet, until the instant they actually pierce the flesh of a magus. And before that happens, the strength of magecraft grants illusions, paralysis methods, or defensive bounded fields, able to completely negate any vulgar attacks.
But they despise technology. What a human who doesn't rely on magecraft can do― a lot of magi cannot recognize that.
The attack the enemy doesn't expect is a shortcut for all battles. Kiritsugu has reached a conclusion from a large number of battles-to-the-death between magi. That is, magi are weak to non-magical attacks.

The high-tech equipment that can be obtained with money is an armament for Emiya Kiritsugu as the 'Magus Killer'. But there also existed a weapon for the 'magus' Emiya Kiritsugu. That is, a 'Mystic Code'― a weapon through which a magus can use magecraft in battle. Thompson Center's Contender.
[...]
Technology becomes the blind spot of magi who stick to magecraft... In the end, this is only a tendency - in other words, nothing more than a generalisation. Indeed, a lot of magi in the world can be defeated with means like a night vision and a heat sensor scope. But there are exceptions that cannot be accounted for by mere rule of thumb. Those to whom generalisations about magi do not apply are the ones Kiritsugu considers "formidable enemies".
Against a "formidable enemy" against whom artifice won't work― Kiritsugu, as a single magus, must stand up when he runs out of secrets. At that time, this Contender becomes Kiritsugu's most powerful fang.

Actually, if this is a duel of secret craft between first-rate magi colleagues, Kayneth wouldn’t be harboring things like anger at all. He would probably admire and acknowledge the opponent’s ability, calmly analyzing its true value, and concentrate in performing his magecraft that would serve as a proper reply for the enemy’s craft. Those noble and flamboyant, gentlemanly games are what Kayneth knew as ‘battles’. With the right to use the Holy Grail at stake, he aimed to compete with Tōsaka Tokiomi, Matō Zōken, and four other unknown yet outstanding opponents, and arrived at this desolate place at the farthest east.
However – the pain of the wound on his right shoulder throbbed and invaded his senses as if mocking Kayneth, continuing the pain as if it was humiliating him.
This isn’t a wound taken in battle. Those things – are never fit to be called "battles".
It was as if he stepped on a piece of rotten floor board. As if he tipped over a steaming pot. As if his best suit got stained with mud.
The opponent is as insignificant as an ant, not worthy to be called an enemy. A piece of rubbish that even seeing it would make him feel dirty and unpleasant.
[...]
There were many traps along the way. Wires tripped by Kayneth's defenseless feet, or a fuse in the carpet that when stepped on would cause a pre-set grenade to explode or a mine to throw out shrapnel. At those times, the mercury protective membrane would expand immediately and rush forward to block it.
Those set traps were like toys made to fool children, so ridiculous that Kayneth wanted to laugh. But the sound of his laughter was at the same time mocking Kayneth, who was hurt by those tricks that were like toys made to fool children.
[...]
Lord El-Melloi’s admirable Mystic Code isn’t something that is made for this kind of foolish tricks. His mercury should be a weapon that takes in Gandr shots, deflects magical swords, and breaks through supernatural fire, ice and lightning. It should be a craft that makes whichever magus who hates him marvel, revere, and at the same time arrive at death.
[...]
It wasn’t because of his skills or outstanding strategies that the mouse managed to touch Kayneth. It was just an unreasonable coincidence. There’s a need to make sure he knows the difference.
Not a confrontation. This is execution. This is slaughter.

Kiritsugu isn't a magus killer because of guns and bombs, it's because his mindset is tailored to exploit the expectations magi have of deadly conflicts as rule-based contests of magecraft between people holding the same values and pride in their mysteries. That someone like Kiritsugu can kill a magus with a letter bomb speaks to the mindset of the average magus towards danger as something that can only befall them by mystical means. If there should indeed be a class about not getting killed by a guy who specialises in killing magi, it would start from the tactics, not how to dropkick someone holding you at gunpoint.

But rationalising it is what a fanfic writer who can grasp the bigger picture of the material and see the rippling consequences of each change would do, and it has been firmly established that Rental Magica guy hails from the Third Fang school of crossovers and callbacks being cruise control for credibility. So now, because of Some Dead Guy who figured out a weird trick to kill magi, everyone has to do martial arts and learn chokeholds just in case someone else in the magic world - where magi generally fight each other with magecraft for the sake of developing and exploring it - will try to kill them with Armalites and pipe bombs, or just specialised anti-magus means in general. Damn, who would do such a thing?

Oh, I don't know, maybe the Enforcers, hunters and freelancers that the Clock Tower hires to kill the magi that they are currently giving anti-assassination training to. Didn't think that one through very well.

[Leftovers]

That said it's pretty funny how this one throwaway thing became a point of contention, it's very reminiscent of fanfic discussion where the whole thing is utter shit but commenters hyperfixate on one inaccurate/wanked Shirou factoid and beat the author to death with it. Imagine what would happen if people still gave a shit when Heartless' deal was revealed and it was a beyond-parody TM fanfic trope pastiche.



like cmon guys there's much worse, he could've rehashed that instead of the make alexander a god plot but with the son of alexander and multiple gods

[warellis]

Now I kind of wonder how many Enforcers just plain shoot magi they're hunting? Like there's Bazett with her super unarmed combat killing moves and then the next guy's amazing Enforcer skill is just shooting them with an assault rifle.

Actually, I now wonder how mundane, or not, most Enforcer killing methods are?

[OnesFleetingGlory]

There were only two other known Enforcers, Alba from KnK and Forte from .talk.

A quick look says that they are element-related, Alba is fire and Forte is wind. Their methods are simple and pragmatic, but not mundane, with Alba spreading fire far and wide, while Forte summons wind blades with the swings of her sword.

[Kamera]

That's the thing right, the Magus Association, the Holy Church, Dead Apostles, True Ancestors, etc all have thousands years of worth of history with countless events to recount and told, and yet some of the most groundbreaking paradigm shifts in their history happened recently courtesy to a random incident in a Japanese suburb. This kind of thing is just basic rule in most Japanese works, and in any other setting there wouldn't be much fuss made about it.

So, what is it about Nasuverse that made the fandom be more critical in the holes of its worldbuilding?

EDIT: I guess what I want to say is, it doesn't really matter how nonsensical specific tidbits of the worldbuilding is, it just have to come with a good story. Case Files as a whole is proof that it doesn't matter how impressively detailed or conceptually sound your setting is, it would still be ass if the story and characters are amateurish garbage.

[Bobin]

It isn’t the same, but the church side are shown packing heat a few times. Kirei has his own collection of firearms, Ciel has a whole arsenal of elaborate murder devices, and Hansa is a cyborg with a holy grenade rocket arm. Black Keys were also mentioned to have fallen out of favor because guns and other stuff are just easier to use.

It at least adds to the rational that magi should watch out and that these things are a common threat now.

[tsugumi]

That's the thing right, the Magus Association, the Holy Church, Dead Apostles, True Ancestors, etc all have thousands years of worth of history with countless events to recount and told, and yet some of the most groundbreaking paradigm shifts in their history happened recently courtesy to a random incident in a Japanese suburb. This kind of thing is just basic rule in most Japanese works, and in any other setting there wouldn't be much fuss made about it.

So, what is it about Nasuverse that made the fandom be more critical in the holes of its worldbuilding?

EDIT: I guess what I want to say is, it doesn't really matter how nonsensical specific tidbits of the worldbuilding is, it just have to come with a good story. Case Files as a whole is proof that it doesn't matter how impressively detailed or conceptually sound your setting is, it would still be ass if the story and characters are amateurish garbage.

Any forum-based fandom space in 2023 is going to be the sort of place that goes over things with a comb. We aren't special.

[Kamera]

I guess the point of contention with Kerry's agency in revolutionizing the Clock Tower curriculum would make more sense if the focus of the cause is not on this individual person, but instead the overall Mage society reaction to modernity and technological advances.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Makes you wonder, was Kerry the dreaded due to his efficiency, or his kill count who were of specific mindset and proud magi?