Lord El-Melloi II Case Files

[neveron]

As one thing that always bother me in Harry Potter after I soaked in other fantasy stories (mostly japanese, mostly TM). That is, the magic expenditure. As I don't remember have seen something of this in all 7 books, that means they don't have it and you can spam Avada Kedavra non-stop?

Being able to cast spells indefinitely is pretty common in fiction, you probably just haven't thought about it because a lot of it is heavily mainstream. Merlin and Madam Mim can cast spells forever without tiring out (beyond just the general physical exhaustion of moving about a lot, which your stereotypical pointy-blue-hat-with-stars wizards can probably magic away anyhow).

Avada Kedavra specifically is probably hard to spam because it requires you to really want a person dead, but generic spells can probably be cast for as long as it takes for your wand-arm to get tired.

The idea of wizards having limits to how much magic they can do is a fairly recent concept, IIRC? Like, Larry Niven invented MP in '69 and D&D's spell slots just go back to Jack Vance in 1950. By and large it's nerd shit, if you asked the man on the street whether or not a wizard would have limits on their magic they'd probably be unsure.

[All fictions]

Depends on the mage craft. I would say using thing mage craft like Imaginary magic numbers, using your origin like shirou etc does contend for being one of the hardest magic imo

How are any of those "hard"? Imaginary Numbers at the best of time is linked to emotions, at the worst of time is extremely vague. Origin is literally whatever quality/characteristic you decide for the character to have.

Neither are especially hard, when neither have rigid definitions or reproducibility.

[Takashi]

How are any of those "hard"? Imaginary Numbers at the best of time is linked to emotions, at the worst of time is extremely vague. Origin is literally whatever quality/characteristic you decide for the character to have.

Neither are especially hard, when neither have rigid definitions or reproducibility.

I was talking about using it being hard to use that magecraft.
Training your origin like shirou. Or using taboo or literally take any other vague origin.
It's hard to find how to weaponise it in the first place as a magecraft. I was talking in that sense.

[All fictions]

I was talking about using it being hard to use that magecraft.
Training your origin like shirou. Or using taboo or literally take any other vague origin.
It's hard to find how to weaponise it in the first place as a magecraft. I was talking in that sense.

Usually, when people are talking about hard and soft in genre fiction, it is not about how easy or difficult it is to use the thing. "Soft" magic can be obtuse to use due to having its own cryptic rules, "hard" magic can be used by anyone and only necessitates years of study just like any science.

"Hard" and "soft" comes from the hard/soft science distinction in real life, where "hard" sciences like physics or biology are seen as more "scientific" than social sciences like sociology or history by having rigid methodologies or more mathematics. This is applied in fiction said to be closer to realism/real life science instead of running on invented rules. Star Wars is soft science-fiction, whereas anything written by Greg Egan or Stephan Baxter is considered hard science-fiction.

Same for soft and hard magic.

[neveron]

I was talking about using it being hard to use that magecraft.
Training your origin like shirou. Or using taboo or literally take any other vague origin.
It's hard to find how to weaponise it in the first place as a magecraft. I was talking in that sense.

To expand on All fictions answer by stealing a section from Wikipedia:

The idea of hard magic and soft magic was popularized by [Brandon] Sanderson for world building and creating magic systems in fictional settings.^[38][39][40] The terminology of hard and soft originate from hard and soft sciences, hard science fiction, hard fantasy and soft science fiction and both terms are approximate ways of characterizing two ends of a spectrum.^[41][42] Hard magic systems follow specific rules, the magic is controlled and explained to the reader in the narrative detailing the mechanics behind the way the magic 'works', and can be used for building interesting worlds that revolve around the magic system.^[43][44] Soft magic systems may not have clearly defined rules or limitations, or provide limited exposition regarding their workings, and are used to create a sense of wonder to the reader.^[38][45][46]

Sanderson's three laws of magic are creative writing guidelines that can be used to create magic systems for fantasy stories.

1. An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.^[41]
2. Weaknesses, limits and costs are more interesting than powers.^[47]
3. The author should expand on what is already a part of the magic system before something entirely new is added, as this may otherwise entirely change how the magic systems fits into the fictional world.^[48]

[Takashi]

To expand on All fictions answer by stealing a section from Wikipedia:

Ignoring the mystery which is basically like no limits fallacy.
Most conflicts in nasuverse usually leans towards being logical win without contradicting the scenario from at least what I read in it.
Weaknesses , limits and costs I do find more interesting than powers itself.
The three points here completely fits in nasuverse imo

[ballinamon]

To expand on All fictions answer by stealing a section from Wikipedia:

I think Harry Potter fails (fails?) in the 3?

[AAM1232]

I think Harry Potter fails (fails?) in the 3?

It's a spectrum from very soft magic on one end to very hard magic at the other, with general trends towards hard magic in a series over time as more things are explained. There's poor execution but not really much 'failure' in following the guidelines, which are just guidelines in the end.

[neveron]

I think Harry Potter fails (fails?) in the 3?

Sanderson's Three Laws of Magic weren't exactly something Rowling was reading since they're from 2007, 2011 and 2013, respectively, and Deathly Hallows was released in 2007. It's also more of a creative writing guideline based on Sanderson's own opinions rather than a hard do-or-die rule. You can read the essays starting here, with links to the later ones being at the bottom of the page.

To quote his essay on the Third Law:

Remember that in writing, nothing is absolute. I don’t read a book and think to myself, “I wonder how well this magic system follows Sanderson’s Laws!” When I read, I’m there to enjoy the story. However, when I analyze why something works or doesn’t work—particularly in a book I’m working on—often these concepts will come into play.

Also, the third is partly about over-worldbuilding and trying to make sure that what you already have it solid before you start adding more shallow stuff. I'd argue that Harry Potter doesn't really fail the law: there's a lot of miscellaneous spells that appear once and never again, but almost everything that's actually relevant is just a handful of spells that the main characters use over and over again to solve their problems. Expelliarmus, etc. The school setting also helps, since it naturally lends itself to slowly introducing specific niche spells that later become relevant.

But also Harry Potter (and Type-Moon's stuff, to bring it back to the main topic of the thread) is ultimately grounded in reality and thus the rules are a bit less relevant since to some degree they're also about general worldbuilding and "what does war look like if wizards can fireball medieval armies" isn't relevant when the basic assumption is "it looks exactly the same as the real world on the surface, but there's secret wizards".

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

So then I guess the question becomes "When was the last time a piece of literature was acknowledged in a TM work that doesn't involve it being real in some form a la Sherlock, Jekyll & Hyde and Nemo...and it didn't involve Flat?"

You'd be better off just excluding strange fake altogether, considering Sigma references Monty Python, Charlie Chaplin etc

If Singapore's MRT system is something magical and it's common for subway systems to be so similar to leylines I don't want to imagine what monster is Japan's

Pyongyang, Kiev, Moscow and St Petersburg subways go so deep that people sometimes get abducted by fairies, 100% confirmed

[JusticeAmongSwords]

Pyongyang, Kiev, Moscow and St Petersburg subways go so deep that people sometimes get abducted by fairies, 100% confirmed

Sometimes it's people, though mostly they abduct the repair/building funds.

[neveron]

You'd be better off just excluding strange fake altogether, considering Sigma references Monty Python, Charlie Chaplin etc

Although do note that some elements of Monty Python and the Holy Grail are probably real in Nasu because the writers are fuckin' nerrrrrds. FGO's joked around with the Rabbit of Caerbannog in particular, to the point that it definitely seems like some members of the Round Table ran into the killer rabbit at one point.

(They probably didn't end up getting arrested, though, and the rest of the film is of dubious canonicity.)

[asterism42]

the rabbit is fou

[neveron]

I was actually thinking about Tristan's first FGO interlude, but rewatching it I guess the entire thing is embellished and probably wasn't literally just the Beast of Caerbannog as the "vorpal bunny". (It even has the specific detail that it's Sir Bors who gets decapitated, which is neat. I certainly didn't remember which knight it was.)

[Reign]

I saw someone who said that Waver plans on quitting his teaching job, is that true?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I mean, he never really liked it in the first place, so I'd imagine he'd quit at the first opportunity.

- - - Updated - - -

My question is if he's still Reines' regent, or if he holds his Lordship or the Faculty of Norwich on his own merits?

[Reign]

His teaching is separate from being Lord El-Melloi, since he started doing it before Reines forced the Lord position onto him. Even if he stops teaching he'd still be LEM2.

My gut is this is a fake rumor since he's still a teacher in FSF, but I figured I'd ask.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

And I was asking a separate question from his teaching status about his Lordship. Once Reines' grows up, will he still be in charge of Norwich, and will he still be LEM2?

[Reign]

Oh
Not unless Reines decides to alter the terms (which she'd probably do just to fuck with him)

[Hermitfold]

I saw someone who said that Waver plans on quitting his teaching job, is that true?

There was a spoiler where he mentioned that there were enough teachers at Norwich now that he didn't have to teach anymore, so I wouldn't be surprised if he steps back and ends up only giving lectures every once in a while. He would prefer to do his own stuff after all.

Oh
Not unless Reines decides to alter the terms (which she'd probably do just to fuck with him)

True, but it doesn't have to be just because of that.

Waver has established a certain reputation as a Lord. It would be useful to let him keep the position for that purpose, while Reines handles all the political stuff like she always has.