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Thread: Lord El-Melloi II Case Files

  1. #4441
    Certified Bazett Appreciator Armandoiskyu's Avatar
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    You know, seeing Gemini makes me wonder how do the other lord's mystic codes work, Valualeta should be something similar to Gemini, being from Creation and stuff

  2. #4442
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    We don't really see Inorai using much magic, do we?

    Her personal style of creation magecraft is sand art, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I think Alex IV can eat Goku.

  3. #4443
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    We only see Inorai locking Trimm with her colored sand. That's not even her basic move. Her stated specialty is imitative association, so her bread and butter is probably the typical "what happens in the sand painting happens in real life" trick. Touko sounded somewhat genuinely afraid of going into Inorai's paintings, it must be hard to avoid and counter.

  4. #4444
    On the Holy Night Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armandoiskyu View Post
    You know, seeing Gemini makes me wonder how do the other lord's mystic codes work, Valualeta should be something similar to Gemini, being from Creation and stuff
    Given the Valualeta approach Creation as more artistry I could see theirs being like magic paint or something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oop more posts since I checked last, should have refreshed.

    On the topic of speculating about other Lords':
    Quote Originally Posted by Reign View Post
    If we assume every Lord has one (which may not necessarily be the case) I'd really like to see Riddell's some time. I'm imagining something aesthetically similar to the Ploy Kickshaws.


    Much to think about.

  5. #4445
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Clearly, before our decadent age of pink, Botany’s original Supremes were Thames, Snark, and Wandersnatch.

  6. #4446
    On the Holy Night Reign's Avatar
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    Though on the other hand, a lot of Alice's Ploys seem more along the lines of familiars than mystic codes. Robin at least is explicitly one.

  7. #4447
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    Trimmau doesn't act like a mystic code, and yet
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I think Alex IV can eat Goku.

  8. #4448
    Wings of the Sunlit Sky Hermitfold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quoren View Post
    Shouldn't Astea's crystal corpse be sufficient for that purpose?
    Damn, totally forgot about that. They really might have something then.

    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Trimmau doesn't act like a mystic code, and yet
    Well that's just because of how Reines uses it.

  9. #4449
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Clearly, before our decadent age of pink, Botany’s original Supremes were Thames, Snark, and Wandersnatch.
    What is the Archelot family magecraft?

    IDK for sure, but I'm pretty sure they're not capital-W Witches the way that Alice's mother etc were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I think Alex IV can eat Goku.

  10. #4450
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle All fictions's Avatar
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    May Riddell is called a descendant of the "ash witches" from the Industrial Revolution, so I think they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    Punching out some nerd doesn't make you a better magus.

  11. #4451
    On the Holy Night Reign's Avatar
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    Though granted I'm not sure if Riddell counts as a proper Witch in the same way I'm not sure if Beryl does. Beo definitely calls her descended from one though.
    Her Goblins also give me the impression of being like Ploys with a different name, though we don't really get a lot of info about them.
    Last edited by Reign; January 9th, 2023 at 10:32 AM.

  12. #4452
    A bit late, but here's the Adventures Volume 5 PDF Raw, since someone else asked me to fetch it:

    ****************************file/d/12Ph...ew?usp=sharing
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  13. #4453
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    >reading summary of book 5

    Wait, Tangere was Cipher this whole time? So did Latio base his personality on Cipher's?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also the "noli me tangere" reference makes their relationship come off as more than a little incestuous, at least on Latio's part
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I think Alex IV can eat Goku.

  14. #4454
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    >reading summary of book 5

    Wait, Tangere was Cipher this whole time? So did Latio base his personality on Cipher's?
    its partially there
    Quote Originally Posted by FSF 5, Chapter 14: Gold and Lions I
    Dumas flashed a fearless grin at Flat and Jack as he rattled off odd turns of phrase.
    "And most importantly, it's me who'll be doing the cooking."
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.


  15. #4455
    Certified Bazett Appreciator Armandoiskyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Also the "noli me tangere" reference makes their relationship come off as more than a little incestuous, at least on Latio's part
    So standard TM sibling relationship then, also why?

  16. #4456
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    It's a phrase that was spoken by Jesus to Mary Magdalene, the inferences are not hard to make
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I think Alex IV can eat Goku.

  17. #4457
    Certified Bazett Appreciator Armandoiskyu's Avatar
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    Hey i have a question, was there a limit to what Gemini could create? Because i just imagined what a combination between UBW, a bigger Gemini, and Atlas Alchemists helping would cause, a literal world changing machine capable of creating even the greatest and most powerful objects in history, like could that combination recreate Excalibur with extra help from the Blackmore Cemetery? This is actually an interesting thing to talk about because of how crazy things could get, hell you could make an entire new story based on this

  18. #4458
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    I believe it needs ingredients of equivalent Mystery.

    or whatever the proper term is

    Like, you couldn't throw in any old scrap iron and get a Noble Phantasm level sword out of it
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I think Alex IV can eat Goku.

  19. #4459
    Certified Bazett Appreciator Armandoiskyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    I believe it needs ingredients of equivalent Mystery.

    or whatever the proper term is

    Like, you couldn't throw in any old scrap iron and get a Noble Phantasm level sword out of it
    No no, i know that, that's why i mentioned UBW, to get materials with great mystery (aka the NPs inside it), i was mainly referring to something like how UBW (normally) can't recreate Divine Constructs, does it have a limitation like that?

  20. #4460
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Chapter 2
    Now that Alexander IV is really relevant to the plot, Gray and Latio ask for a Waver lecture on his history. Waver provides the real-life biography and touches on some points that are recontextualized thanks to the information we know about Ergo's origins.

    1) One notoriously tragic part of Alex IV's life is that when he was Cassander's prisoner, he was cut off from texts. But knowing Ergo's abnormal language learning ability, Cassander's seemingly pointless act of cruelty gains a plausible reason. What if that doesn't come from any god? What if Alexander IV was born with the talent to read anything without having to study the language? That'd be enough of a reason to keep the books away from the kid.

    2) Ptolemy's actions in life are another point of interest now that his involvement in Ergo's project came to light. Namely his myth reconstruction. His stealing Iskandar's corpse and controlling his priests to make Iskandar known as both a son of Zeus and a son of Ra sounded like pure fanaticism but now Waver can see a pragmatic purpose to it. Even in the Age of Gods, mages couldn't do anything. Some rituals required the power of a king. Take for example the creation of the calendar and how much that enabled time magecraft. By establishing his syncretic Hellenism centered around Iskandar and uniting all tales and wisdom in the Library of Alexandria, Ptolemy reshaped faith in a way a mage could never. He created a new magecraft foundation that facilitates the mixing of gods from different cultures, and through that, he enabled Ergo's ritual.

    But these reveals don't change anyone's motivations. Waver still considers Ergo a student. Gray still wants to live up to the big sister figure Ergo sees her as. On that topic, Gray asks Latio about her past relationship with Cipher, for advice on how to be an older sister. Latio explains her relationship with Cipher is still very much present. Back when Cipher's body was discovered 3 years ago, Latio was too deep into her Atlas research, meaning she didn’t have the time to mourn her dead brother. So she made it so she didn’t lose her brother. She took Cipher’s skull and used it as the core of Tangere's personality. The reason why Tangere always calls Latio "Lady" and the reason why Latio hates it so much is that Tangere doesn't have Cipher's memories, so he doesn't consider himself her real brother.

    Flashback to Ziz gathering together with Wuzhiqi and the old Crudelis mage in the Library room Waver's group is currently at. Ziz jokes he's surprised everyone is here, as he was expecting at least one traitor. Wuzhiqi casually tries to punch him, saying he'd be the first one to betray the project. The punch stops before hitting Ziz because he plasters the concepts of delay and stagnation on the space in front of him. The trio then proceeds to announce their contributions. Crudelis provided the location. Ziz devised the spell. And Wuzhiqi found the vessel. In cue with Wuzhiqi's part, Ptolemy entered the room carrying Alexander IV's lifeless body.

    Ergo wakes up in the 4th layer's control room. The replica version of Ptolemy doesn't have the clearance to enter the control room even through the space foam, but they got there using Ergo's credentials. Ergo asks for confirmation that he's Alexander IV but the bird can't say for sure, since he can't access the parts of the real Ptolemy's memories that contain Atlas secrets. He took Ergo to the control room because it was always the first place Alex IV would go to. All of the library's mechanisms are designed to let only Alexander IV pass to the 4th layer. The bird guides Ergo through a secret route, trusting that in one of the memories he can't access, the living Ptolemy left a plan to prevent Ergo from being consumed by the gods he consumed.

    Rin and Luvia discuss the secret routes the old Edelfelt used to rob the library and conclude that it was a route intentionally installed by Ptolemy for whatever his intentions with Ergo are. Meanwhile, Sion managed to connect her Etherlight communications with Ergo.

    While Ergo is following Ptolemy through the secret hallways, Sion instructs him to stall Ptolemy with long conversations. Ptolemy leads him to the core room with his sarcophagus. Ergo tries to touch the sarcophagus to access its knowledge. He wants to know to avoid his memory saturation, he wants to know who he is, but most of all, he wants to know what's the deal with Ruolong. Sion telepathically yells at him to stop but doesn't directly restrain his actions. Ergo ultimately stops before touching the sarcophagus to talk with Ptolemy as he currently is, since he doesn't know if he'll still be himself after recovering his memories. Ergo's question is what Ptolemy thinks the reason for the theft of his heart is.

    The running trio celebrates Ergo not screwing this up. During the run, Rin asks if Sion isn't tired from having her Etherlite constantly connected. Sion finds the question absurd. A Six Sources alchemist getting tired from using their Traditional Feature makes as much sense as a normal person getting tired from their heart beating all the time. Sion assumed it was the same thing for Clock Tower and the Magic Crests, so Rin has to lecture her about all the bad side effects of Crests (no new information here, surprisingly). After some more banter, Sion has a moment of pause and introspection, noting how easily she's having balanced conversations now. She was always feared for her Etherlite, but here she was having an easy time, which she associates with the two girls being students of the infamous Plunderer Duke, another mage known for stealing information. Rin invites Sion for an Alexandria tour after they get Ergo out of the Library.

    Ergo keeps stalling for time with his whydunnit questioning, resorting to some 6 pages of silly nonsense reasoning, like how the sarcophagus counts as a second locked room within the locked room since it's sealed shut by chains of lighting. Ergo's stalling tactics paid off, but the goal was to buy enough time for Sion's group to arrive, and instead, it was Karmaglyph's group who arrived first.

    Karmaglyph's group reached the 4th layer because all the bubbles he kept making with Gemini to make his portal had the data used for Ergo's warp. The people in the room exchange greetings despite already being in the know about each other through their own channels (the data in Karmaglyph's space foam, Ptolemy's instructions from Latio, and the character profiles uploaded to Ergo's brain by Etherlite). Karmaglyph expresses special respect for Ptolemy since his bloodline's origins lie in the (historical version of the) Library of Alexandria. With the introductions out of the way, Karmaglyph proceeds to present his answer to the mystery.

    Karmaglyph fancies himself as a fan of Lord El-Melloi II, so he gets serial reports on all of Waver's cases. For that reason, he's aware that Ergo's case involves Divine Spirits and the Wandering Sea. Though since Ergo hasn't been designated for sealing yet, he's confident he's still the only other Lord who knows about him. Anyway, generally, the key to cracking cases lies on the whydunnit but with those potentially time-traveling factors at play, Karmaglyph's attention moves to the whendunnit. He lists 3 opportunities for the crime to have been committed: at the time of the Library's construction, during Cipher's invasion 3 years ago, and during the joint excavation. The heart could have been stolen in any of these opportunities, but not in any of them there was a need to create the locked rooms, neither by sealing the sarcophagus nor by re-locking the 4th layer. Karmaglyph deduces that in each timeframe, someone came to the room for some different purpose, and this crime scene is only complex because they were trying to investigate the three simple visits as a single thing.

    He starts with the first one, on the construction. In a dark version of a Waver lecture, Karmaglyph explains Ptolemy's involvement in the Diadochi Wars, accusing him of his contributions to the start and prolongment of the conflict, thus indirectly accusing him of causing all the tragedies of Alexander IV's life. The guilt Ptolemy feels about it is visible through the mechanical bird. His stealing Iskandar's corpse was a political move to justify his hegemony but stealing Alexander IV's corpse served no similar political purpose, so Karmaglyph reasons that Ptolemy stole Alexander's corpse for personal reasons. To bring him to the library where he'd become Ergo.

    But before this heartless dissection of the motive can continue, Tangere opens the room's gate for Latio, Gray, and Waver.

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