There. The Kanji that's been trolling us.切断面
Wasn't it stated that the Fujou on top of the building was a vessel of her mind and soul, as much as her physical body in the hospital was? Touko also says that the damage Shiki did to the phantom's heart would soon damage Fujou's own as well. Therefore, we can consider the phantom to be something close to a human body as well. Nasu simply wasn't thinking it out completely when he did KnK back then.
Something about being a second container/existence that she controlled with her mind, yes.Wasn't it stated that the Fujou on top of the building was a vessel of her mind and soul, as much as her physical body in the hospital was?
But Lio was unable to heal after he was cut by Ryougi, this is strangely inconsistent.
And Araya calls it a body.
It's like the real body, but it isn't. It's like a ghostly duplicate without the organs, making her a double existence.Originally Posted by Nanaya
It just says that the "knife drives into the chest of the woman as she is forced downwards. As simply and swiftly as slicing through a fruit", not about the heart being specifically the target of Shiki.Even if the body isn't really real or whatever is going on, she thinks about how it felt to have her heart being ripped after she 'died'. She was less abstract than the other ghosts too. Her heart also was specifically the target of Shiki and somehow Touko says she could heal the wound that would come to her other body(Is it a dotstab if it can be healed? Could Touko have really done it?).
It's like dealing with Nero Chaos. If you kill one of the many beasts of Chaos (which don't seem to have organs and return to sludge when killed) by stabbing it's dot, you destroy the beast instantly (as Shiki killed the ghostly double), but you do not kill the whole, only dealing damage to it. This damage cannot be regenerated from, but its a possibility it could be "healed" (possibly by replacing it with a puppet part, like when Ryougi killed her twisted arm).
Killing things in the body like that is an advanced technique. Even Tohno nearly burned himself out trying to kill poison.They don't say anything about how she did it. I don't think we can assume it requires a specific level as we got nothing about what is required or how its done in her case.
It dies the same way as a real body once something can affect it though apparently. And its still a MeoDP attack regardless. Its close enough to a real body.It's like the real body, but it isn't. It's like a ghostly duplicate without the organs, making her a double existence.
Its all in the chapter where shes talking to Touko. The heart is what was hit and the real body would also be damaged eventually.It just says that the "knife drives into the chest of the woman as she is forced downwards. As simply and swiftly as slicing through a fruit", not about the heart being specifically the target of Shiki.
I also think its a stretch to compare it to Nero really. Its an entirely different issue. Nero is a RM with 666 lives while the girl is manipulating 2 bodies. Killing the beasts doesn't really do anything besides kill the beasts and he can walk away just fine. When he/RM in particular was dot stabbed he died instantly along with the beasts. When the ghost was 'dot stabbed' her other self is fine but linked somehow so she is going to receive future damage. Now, if it functioned like a dotstab what would Touko be healing? Doesn't a dot stab imply you are history? Sounds more like she'd be healing a line cut/damage to the heart. So Ryougi dot stabbed her arm now? How is she alive?It's like dealing with Nero Chaos. If you kill one of the many beasts of Chaos (which don't seem to have organs and return to sludge when killed) by stabbing it's dot, you destroy the beast instantly (as Shiki killed the ghostly double), but you do not kill the whole, only dealing damage to it. This damage cannot be regenerated from, but its a possibility it could be "healed" (possibly by replacing it with a puppet part, like when Ryougi killed her twisted arm).
Girls double was killed with a hear stab, then Shiki tosses the corpse over the fence and she fades. The real body was going to receive similar damage that Touko could heal. Thats what we know. Is it enough to say that the cross-section on her chest was different in function to any other attack? I don't think so. I don't think her picking the one on the chest rather than the other three areas that she saw on the body is enough to absolutely say it is a different function.
Its just one of the multiple lines that crossed/cross section - whatever. A line.
And she nearly burned herself out staring at Arayas lines. Just because its harder doesn't mean its a different function. Not saying its not advanced, just that it doesn't imply its different. Besides, Tohno is Tohno, Ryougi is Ryougi. They have their differences.Killing things in the body like that is an advanced technique. Even Tohno nearly burned himself out trying to kill poison.
Now, I don't think I'm the only one whose not convinced. Maybe I am? Doesn't matter, I'm just shedding reasonable doubt because there really isn't enough proof for something that should be so easy to display. "There is something wrong with it being a point rather than a line." That is what Tohno said verbatim. At least here it makes note of it not being the same (disregarding the later shown differences.)
My money is on Nasu not having had it worked out that much. Then again, it could have something to do with both Shiki being different superficially. Hey concrete box, I'm looking at you.
Last edited by Nanaya; May 23rd, 2011 at 12:57 AM.
A MEoDP attack...that stabbed right through the cutting section of the chest. Not slashed, stabbed.
It said that the area around the heart was "pierced and ripped" not that the target was the heart. Ryougi Shiki aimed for the "cutting section" on the chest, not explicitly for the heart, of the ghostly figure, and it caused damage to the physical (main) form. Exactly like what happened with Nero Chaos.Its all in the chapter where shes talking to Touko. The heart is what was hit and the real body would also be damaged eventually.
Nero is comprised of 666 beasts - one mind controlling that many bodies, bound up in one Reality Marble. Fujou Kirie manipulates two bodies with one mind, as a double existence.I also think its a stretch to compare it to Nero really. Its an entirely different issue. Nero is a RM with 666 lives while the girl is manipulating 2 bodies.
When one beast of Nero is killed by dotstab and does not return to the Chaos, it's only 1/666th of his total vitality. With Fujou Kirie, it's about half her vitality. Of course she's going to feel more damage than Nero did, since it's a much greater fraction of her life that was destroyed.
Ryougi Shiki dotstabbed that body, just as Tohno Shiki dotstabbed many of Chaos' beasts. She did not dotstab "the existence of Fujou Kirie" in that battle, as she wasn't trying to perceive the death of the overall double existence, merely of the enemy before her. You kill what you are seeking to kill, not everything else besides.
Yes, Ryougi killed her arm. Her original arm no longer exists, having been replaced with a puppet arm (which is how she could grab Fujou Kirie's ghostly body and draw it near).
And how would you kill a ghost (which does not have a heart) with a heart stab? You'd kill it by striking the cutting-section called death, in effect, a dot stab.Girls double was killed with a hear stab, then Shiki tosses the corpse over the fence and she fades. The real body was going to receive similar damage that Touko could heal. Thats what we know. Is it enough to say that the cross-section on her chest was different in function to any other attack? I don't think so. I don't think her picking the one on the chest rather than the other three areas that she saw on the body is enough to absolutely say it is a different function.
I'm fairly certain that meant to have her arms trapped inside the concrete so she couldn't actually slash anything...Hey concrete box, I'm looking at you.
Err, IIRC what Ryougi sees when she sees a physical object are 'the weakest area of atomic connection in the physical object, and cutting through them would cause them to cease to exist (ie. to die/utterly destroyed)'. That line/cross-section on Fujou's chest, ghost or not, was the weakest part of her existance/body and slashing that would cause her to 'die' the quickest.
And as for the concrete box, Touko meant that without a sharp enough weapon, Ryouji can't physically slash through concrete. Heck, even Tohno Shiki or Nanaya Shiki wouldn't be able to slice concrete boxes with their barehands. Araya entrapped Ryouji in a magecraft prison of prana, which is practically pure energy, and she can easily put her hand through it.
I think the original quote goes something like "Ryougi does not know whether the lines are the end of the object or weak areas of atomic connection".'the weakest area of atomic connection in the physical object, and cutting through them would cause them to cease to exist (ie. to die/utterly destroyed)'
The idea is that she does not know what the lines really are, she just knows cutting them results in death.
EDIT:
Here it is:
Can't exactly say the lines are "molecular faults".The death she could see on people if she merely wished to, this man doesn't have any.
If you felt along a human's body there were lines that put an end to the part they belonged to if they were cut. Whether those were the seams of life, or a weakness in the bonds between the molecules, Shiki didn't know. It just was that she could see them.
Without exception everyone she had seen until now had possessed those 'lines of death'.
Last edited by food; May 23rd, 2011 at 03:37 AM.
Still a line and still the heart area being damaged/cut on the body. The function of the line matters, not how it was slashed/cut/stabbed/whatever. Touko says cut, scene says stab, the other says ripped, whatever. It doesn't even matter: The point was it is a MeoDP attack to the heart area. That would kill almost anything. Essentially a sure kill. Usually.A MEoDP attack...that stabbed right through the cutting section of the chest. Not slashed, stabbed.
Shiki told Touko thats where she damaged her and Touko came to check on it. Good enough proof that the heart was hit. They make a point of it to describe the heart being damaged.
Again, doesn't matter. The targeted area and the heart are the same thing. The section she cut was on the heart and thats what was damaged. Yes, she went for the cross-section of the chest/heart and ripped the heart. She chose that instead of anything else. That doesn't mean its a dotstab at all. Doesn't even imply it.It said that the area around the heart was "pierced and ripped" not that the target was the heart. Ryougi Shiki aimed for the "cutting section" on the chest, not explicitly for the heart, of the ghostly figure, and it caused damage to the physical (main) form. Exactly like what happened with Nero Chaos.
Thats entirely your opinion. Nero lost 106 beasts and would have been fine. He should have run away according to Tohno at that point. He is an entirely different creature compared to Kirie, don't make assumptions like that.Nero is comprised of 666 beasts - one mind controlling that many bodies, bound up in one Reality Marble. Fujou Kirie manipulates two bodies with one mind, as a double existence.
When one beast of Nero is killed by dotstab and does not return to the Chaos, it's only 1/666th of his total vitality. With Fujou Kirie, it's about half her vitality. Of course she's going to feel more damage than Nero did, since it's a much greater fraction of her life that was destroyed.
Basically your saying if Shiki had killed 333 beasts, Nero/RM would have somehow been hurt as a result? Sounds far-fetched. Killing 665 lives won't even matter. All that matters is killing the chaos that Nero is or every single one.
Again, Kirie isn't like Nero so stop comparing them please. Kill a beast, Neros fine because he has the rest of his lives, kill the ghost and Kiri somehow is going to be injured in the same spot and die. Either way, Kirie just isn't a RM comprised of multiple lives, so there isn't any 'existence of Fujo Kirie' to be targeted that would kill both in that way. Nero is clearly a special case and she doesn't have anything like that from what we saw. We can't assume that there is.Ryougi Shiki dotstabbed that body, just as Tohno Shiki dotstabbed many of Chaos' beasts. She did not dotstab "the existence of Fujou Kirie" in that battle, as she wasn't trying to perceive the death of the overall double existence, merely of the enemy before her. You kill what you are seeking to kill, not everything else besides.
Anyway, the ghost and Kirie are linked somehow, so they are probably the same life anyway or something. Close enough that they will share damage. And if she is being dotstabbed then she shouldn't be around to be healed if they receive the same damage. You can't heal a dotstab. If the damage is coming later then why would it be different from what killed the other body if thats what you wanna assume, even though its in the same spot?
I know about the arm scene with Fujino but lol. So body parts now have dots different from the collective? You can dotstab body parts without actually carrying out the intended function of a dotstab? What? Clearly not a dotstab.Yes, Ryougi killed her arm. Her original arm no longer exists, having been replaced with a puppet arm (which is how she could grab Fujou Kirie's ghostly body and draw it near).
In favor of the Kirie thing being a dotstab, you only get one vague line that doesn't really fit and only works if you smile and close your eyes. In my opinion anyway.
Dealing a deathblow to the heart with MeoDP? Like what was shown? Maybe its a heart in the same sense that she has a 'face' or 'body'? It clearly hit the 'heart' of the body and pierced the 'chest' of the 'corpse'. Nasu doesn't make sense anyway. No reason to assume it was a 'dotstab.'And how would you kill a ghost (which does not have a heart) with a heart stab? You'd kill it by striking the cutting-section called death, in effect, a dot stab.
I'm not so sure about that interpretation.I'm fairly certain that meant to have her arms trapped inside the concrete so she couldn't actually slash anything...
Pretty much this. Easier to say I think.That line/cross-section on Fujou's chest, ghost or not, was the weakest part of her existance/body and slashing that would cause her to 'die' the quickest.
I really don't care about this topic since its unrelated, but I recall people saying it was because she doesn't have the strength to cut through it. And that Tohno didn't need strength though he never showed it either IIRC. I don't really know and I doubt Nasu ever clarified that. She did break a finger on a 'zombie' though so obviously a weapon helps her.And as for the concrete box, Touko meant that without a sharp enough weapon, Ryouji can't physically slash through concrete. Heck, even Tohno Shiki or Nanaya Shiki wouldn't be able to slice concrete boxes with their barehands. Araya entrapped Ryouji in a magecraft prison of prana, which is practically pure energy, and she can easily put her hand through it.
Too much text, bleh.
Aw man, so much text, it burns.
Is this even such a major issue? It's just one word.
I sniped you food.Too much text, bleh.
But your right, it is just one word. Thats the entire point. (See what I did there?)
And no, it isn't a big deal to me. I'll stop here anyway. Its silly now. Someone else can continue what I conveyed if they care.
You cannot kill the heart of something that didn't have a heart to begin with. It's a ghostly body, which means targeting the heart, rather than say, the cutting-section where several lines came together in a dot, would not have been an instant kill.
Ah, but the heart area is not the heart itself. And while they describe the heart being damaged, that doesn't mean that that was the area initially targeted. The section that was hit on the ghost vessel was the cross-section on the heart. The echo of this shock was conveyed through the link of the two bodies.Shiki told Touko thats where she damaged her and Touko came to check on it. Good enough proof that the heart was hit. They make a point of it to describe the heart being damaged.
This implies dotstab, not simply heartstab, which wouldn't have impacted the original.
Then why, praytell, would Nero have been so upset about the beasts not returning to the Chaos? Why would he have shifted into the 999th Beast form?Thats entirely your opinion.
And why exactly should he have run away if he was not being hurt? He is the closest type of existence one can find to Kirie at this point, given that both exist as multiple entities - Nero as 666 beings in one, and Kirie as two in one.Nero lost 106 beasts and would have been fine. He should have run away according to Tohno at that point. He is an entirely different creature compared to Kirie, don't make assumptions like that.
Why didn't he retreat? His pride as a vampire, which wouldn't acknowledge defeat from a "mere human."
Well, as precedent, Iskander's Reality marble was destabilized when the majority of the soldiers inside were killed. And as Nero is a collective existence, the mere fact that someone was actually killing his "immortal" beasts, which should have returned to the chaos and been reborn - but were not after being dotstabbed, is a very significant thing. It's hurting him because each of the beasts are a part of him, and thus killing 665 lives, while it wouldn't end his existence, would gravely weaken and wound him.Basically your saying if Shiki had killed 333 beasts, Nero/RM would have somehow been hurt as a result? Sounds far-fetched.
You're mistaken. Logically, Nero would seem fine after you kill a beast because 1/666 is a minuscule fraction of his total vitality, not just because he has the "rest of his lives left." He isn't isn't exactly Heracles, who defaults to the same state when he loses a life. When Kirie's ghostly body is killed, the echo of this death affects the core existence because she has only existed as two bodies simultaneously.Again, Kirie isn't like Nero so stop comparing them please. Kill a beast, Neros fine because he has the rest of his lives, kill the ghost and Kiri somehow is going to be injured in the same spot and die. Either way, Kirie just isn't a RM comprised of multiple lives, so there isn't any 'existence of Fujo Kirie' to be targeted that would kill both in that way. Nero is clearly a special case and she doesn't have anything like that from what we saw. We can't assume that there is.
If Shiki had targeted the "Consciousness" of Fujou Kirie (the one mind controlling the bodies), instead of just the death of that body, Kirie would have died, for while she is not a RM comprised of multiple lives, but she is a double existence. One mind controlling two bodies. This is explicitly stated.
The ghostly body was dostabbed, not the physical body of Fujou Kirie or the consciousness that was shared between the two. And while you may not be able to regenerate it, who says one can't replace the damaged part?Anyway, the ghost and Kirie are linked somehow, so they are probably the same life anyway or something. Close enough that they will share damage. And if she is being dotstabbed then she shouldn't be around to be healed if they receive the same damage. You can't heal a dotstab. If the damage is coming later then why would it be different from what killed the other body if thats what you wanna assume, even though its in the same spot?
She clearly states that she killed the arm, and that Touko made a new one. It's right in the text.I know about the arm scene with Fujino but lol. So body parts now have dots different from the collective? You can dotstab body parts without actually carrying out the intended function of a dotstab? What? Clearly not a dotstab.
Spoiler:
As for parts different from the collective...so someone can't kill say...vampiric blood inside themselves because its only a part of a body? Or a disease, which affects a part of the body? Oh wait...
There's plenty of evidence. You're just brushing it aside because you don't want to believe that she is capable of dotstabbing.In favor of the Kirie thing being a dotstab, you only get one vague line that doesn't really fit and only works if you smile and close your eyes. In my opinion anyway.
Not that Tohno ever took down a zombie with his bare hands, so you can't really compare...I really don't care about this topic since its unrelated, but I recall people saying it was because she doesn't have the strength to cut through it. And that Tohno didn't need strength though he never showed it either IIRC. I don't really know and I doubt Nasu ever clarified that. She did break a finger on a 'zombie' though so obviously a weapon helps her.
Nope.There's plenty of evidence.
Then I suppose we have a difference of opinion.
If noone else wants to poke the holes in your post then I'll let it die.
People can draw their own conclusions from the thread.difference of opinion.
I still don't get that whole concrete box thing, maybe Touko was just listing something off the top of her head as an example of physical structures being better to contain her, sort of like how Nasu uses a non-average Noble Phantasm to illustrate what an average Noble Phantasm would look like.
If it really is an issue of strength she cut a adult male body in half with the flat of her finger, bones and all. Bones are harder than concrete, ergo cutting concrete with a knife should be possible
The lines seem to be imperfections within the substance. This is probably why "perfect beings" like Arc on the night and ORT don't have lines. As stated here:
Mystic Eyes of Death Perception (Tsukihime's Tokuhon)
The eyes that Shiki has which sees the death of things.
This is shown as black lines and and dots. Lines are the lines where the substance breaks easily and dots are death itself.
Cut the line and the corresponding part dies and will never move again even if the main body is alive. Strike the dot and that entity will complete cease to function.
He'll see the lines even if he doesn't will himself to, but to see the point from where the lines flow, he'll need extreme concentration.
That's Tohno's.
It is likely that Nasu did not iron out how Ryougi's MEoDP work when he wrote KnK.
I thought the general BL consensus has always been that the eyes of both Shikis work the same. But now that I check the Rakkyo dictionary, it explicitly states that lines are the lifespan of the substance rather than a weakness between the molecules, so the eyes of the Shkis do work differently after all?
Rakkyo dictionary on death lines
The scribble-like lines always flowing around that Ryougi Shiki sees. These are present in any and all things, and by cutting them through blades, it is possible to "cut" an object having these lines. There is no strength to these lines, so no matter what the object it is, it can be killed equally.
The death lines are not lines where the object is cut easily but the concept of the lifespan of existence taking form.
sounds more like R.shiki blurs the lines (no pun intended) between what she sees as lines and her cross section dot, while tohno differentiates them into two distinct categories.
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