General News Thread

[Twelveseal]

So this isn'tall that much of a surprise, but it still ain't good. This was the kind of thing that helped start the Militia Movement and unify white nationalists into a more cohesive, anti-government group back with the Pentagon Papers. So, what happens when you have a generation of war veterans who feel like both of the only two viable political parties betrayed them and sent them overseas to die for no real end goal? Odds are, it won't be pretty.

[SeiKeo]

this is a really weird historical interpretation of the pentagon papers

[Mattias]

A country having no idea what it was doing attacking Afghanistan? That's par for the course there. And they had a decent enough reason to go in after 9/11. Iraq's the one to probably get all the disaffected vets railing against it.

[Twelveseal]

I agree, but the thing to understand is that they helped to disillusion many of the war's veterans with the US government, having been sent to fight a losing war under horrific conditions, having been pitted against guerrilla tactics used by insurgents with a lot of popular support, their own government's chemical weapons, and returned home to a popular movement that villified them. And this isn't even accounting for the degree to which so many were ill-prepared for it, especially once the draft went into effect. These soldiers were put into a scenario where anyone who looked different could be an enemy, openly hostile or otherwise, and formed bonds between troops that transcended previous ideological differences as brothers in arms.

This was toxic for basically everyone else when it came to the two previously competing white nationalists movements here; the Ku Klux Klan and the Neo Nazis, the former of which liked to view and portray themselves as patriots and despised the latter as sympathizers with America's enemy. When it became clear that the US had screwed them all over, the Klan suddenly had a lot less reason to try to be "patriotic." Instead, the narrative became one in which America's wars, and especially Vietnam, were just wrong. That the government had failed and couldn't be trusted. That it might well be out to get them.

That sentiment spawned the Militia Movement, driven by a fear that the government was just exploiting the people and the need to defend oneself from them, and intertwined that with the slowly aligning WN movements. Coupled with the successes of the Civil Rights Movement, it slowly pushed more WN's into the militias, resulting in them picking up the distinct paramilitary appearance and behavior that used to be their identifier. Now they like to seem more "normal," but it's still there.

Edit: Also saw an interesting point of view on the Iraq invasion not long ago. It suggested the main reason was that Saddam Hussein had opted to stop running oil sales in USD, which Reagan had managed to get OPEC to agree to, and use the Euro instead. The idea is that Bush invaded to stop that for fear that it might cause other oil producers to follow suit. All that oil money stabilizes the USD for trade and links every oil-buying market to the currency, letting the US run up titanic debt without repercussions. Without that oil backup, America's charge card might be declined, so to speak.

[SeiKeo]

yeah exactly, 'vietnam veterans were radicalized into white nationalism' is insanely weird considering the most famous post vietnam radicals were all socialists

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Edit: Also saw an interesting point of view on the Iraq invasion not long ago. It suggested the main reason was that Saddam Hussein had opted to stop running oil sales in USD, which Reagan had managed to get OPEC to agree to, and use the Euro instead. The idea is that Bush invaded to stop that for fear that it might cause other oil producers to follow suit. All that oil money stabilizes the USD for trade and links every oil-buying market to the currency, letting the US run up titanic debt without repercussions. Without that oil backup, America's charge card might be declined, so to speak.

how are you 34? you should be old enough to remember this. this is back when we ran the occasional surplus out of the clinton budget deal. national debt only really took off after 07

[Twelveseal]

Oh I'm not saying most. What I'm saying is that that's part of what brought the movement together and gave it it's paramilitary flavor.

You're right about the majority of well-known postwar radicals being far left. Probably the most famous at this point, or at least the ones I ever hear referenced anymore, would be the weird bombers, Weather Underground. Or, well, I guess you could include Jonestown and all that mess, but that feels like a whole other realm of nuts to me.

Edit: We had a surplus out of Clinton's administration, yes. The point isn't the current level of the national debt. The point is the ability to accrue debt if needed without having to worry about it should it come to that.

That said, I've only seen this argument in one place.

And another edit: seems the petrodollar war was a popular theory as to why we invaded Iraq... while it was happening. Now, not so much. This probably explains why I only recently heard it. It's strange that it's cropping up in any source now...

Also, a couple of things on the WN stuff here and here.

Not perfect, but eh.

[Pendant]

how are you 34? you should be old enough to remember this. this is back when we ran the occasional surplus out of the clinton budget deal. national debt only really took off after 07

Not that debt/deficits even matter.

[Twelveseal]

Just ask France when it sold the Louisiana Territory to the US to pay off its war debt. Or tge natives who lived there, for that matter.

[Pendant]

Yes, territory which the US was considering taking by force anyway since Jefferson didn't even want to recognize the French claim of the area and was ultimately sold for $15 mil (approx. $350 mil in today's dollars) is perfectly analogous to a $1 trillion boondoggle.

This notion of debt is a fucking scam to push through crippling austerity because it banks on the fairly rational assumption that people won't be able to differentiate the notion of nation debt from the sort of debt they do understand, that of household debt. Which is why we "can't" pay $67b for free college but no one cares about where the $90b military spending budget hike comes from.

tldr - don't be a fucking mark.

[Twelveseal]

I'm curious what lead you to this interpretation of national debt. Care to explain beyond the given example?

[Pendant]

Well, keeping aside the fact that foreign governments only own ~$6 trillion of US debt which they'd never call repayment of on anyway since they're more interested in having their companies get cut into sweetheart trade agreements than they are in getting it paid back. The fact is that the vast majority of US debt is owned by the United States and when you "owe" money to yourself it's the same as not owing anything. And answer me this: as best as I can surmise you are clearly very worried about the debt which currently stands at ~$22 trillion, so say we waved a magic wand and made half of that go poof overnight. Now US debt is ~$11 trillion, explain to me how that would make your life better. Hell, you can forget that since we had a budget surplus with Clinton in the 90s and what did all that neoliberal welfare reform do but usher in the barbarism of today where in many places even water is commodified.

[SeiKeo]

hit my sanders for president bingo from that post, is my prize free college

[Tobias]

Dude Bernie bro on the internet is like, free space

[Twelveseal]

Lol, can't say much. I voted for Bernie back in 2016's primaries.

@Pendant: Sorry for the slow response, I've been at work, and I still have some things to do yet...

I see where you're coming from, and now have a better understanding of why you might refuse to vote moderate Dem despite clearly not being a fan of Trump or advocating for a 3rd Party candidate.

That said, I don't exactly agree with you. As I understand it, most of the "public" debt owed to the US is either privately held by US citizens and companies in forms like Bonds that pay out at set times. The intragovernment portions are reserves allocated to government departments and programs to fund their operations and services, including things like Medicare and Social Security. "Wiping away" that debt amounts to stealing from the people who invested in the US, not unlike buying shares in a company only to have your broker sell them all and keep the proceeds. Considering that it's Americans who hold most of it, it ends up being like a giant, one-time tax on everyone who tried to support the US or otherwise make an investment... That's brutal, and no one's going to want to buy Bonds from us anymore for fear we'd do it again. Nevermind what this would do to the government's operations... the fat Trump gub'mint shutdown let us get a good look at folks having to work without pay, but without resources too? Or watching Social Security just vanish overnight...

I agree with you that I don't see every foreign buyer, or domestic one, cashing in their Notes, Bonds, and Bills all at once or the like. We do still have to pay them out on schedule or as they would normally, but that's manageable. It takes something extreme to get people to try to cash those things in or stop buying them. However, we do live in a time of extremes.

My understanding of this whole thing could be wrong. I'm not an expert. I could be going full retard here. However, it at least doesn't seem to me like it only exists to be some sort of bludgeon conservatives use to justify their questionable budget choices.

I end up thinking of places like Puerto Rico...

[Pendant]

If you're contending that the US/NATO hegemony needs to be broken up, then I agree with you. In all these cases like Argentina, Puerto Rico, Greece it's companies running to powerful governments to ensure that their interests are respected first and foremost. That's not the "invisible hand of the market" working as intended. It's corporate owned politicians in wealthy countries serving their real constituents. It's also an utter failure of imagination to expect that a US adoption of socialism would end in the same way since the US is nowhere near as vulnerable. The bosses would, of course, resist and do everything in their power to undermine such a movement whether it be with misinformation campaigns or assassinations but having socialists control the levers of power in the US presents a wholly different dynamic.

[RacingeR]

"The invisible hand of the market" was always a fucking meme. It is not a thing that exists, so there isn't really a "working as intended" there. It was always very rich people manipulating the market for their own short-term profit, without caring if the world burns as a result of their actions.

[Mcjon01]

I propose we change it from “the invisible hand of the market distributes resources most fairly” to “the invisible dick of the market fucks whatever hole is closest”

[RacingeR]

I propose we change it from “the invisible hand of the market distributes resources most fairly” to “the invisible sick of the market fucks whatever hole is closest”

It'd be way more accurate, certainly.

[Kamera]

If you're contending that the US/NATO hegemony needs to be broken up, then I agree with you. In all these cases like Argentina, Puerto Rico, Greece it's companies running to powerful governments to ensure that their interests are respected first and foremost. That's not the "invisible hand of the market" working as intended. It's corporate owned politicians in wealthy countries serving their real constituents. It's also an utter failure of imagination to expect that a US adoption of socialism would end in the same way since the US is nowhere near as vulnerable. The bosses would, of course, resist and do everything in their power to undermine such a movement whether it be with misinformation campaigns or assassinations but having socialists control the levers of power in the US presents a wholly different dynamic.

That said, as comrade Tse Tung put it, true political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. You are deluded if you think US would just "adopt" socialism.

[Kamera]

https://www.mintpressnews.com/harves...talism/263175/

When we say that capitalism is a blood-sucking vampire, it's not only a metaphor, we meant it quite literally.


Also please for the love of god vote the tories out, vote Labour. God damn, it's fucking surreal it is to see BoJo embarass himself in the last day of campaign by hiding in a damn fridge.