General News Thread

[Tobias]

You are welcome to check my post history. My stance is always been accusations should be taken seriously. But sometimes the serious response to a rape claim is to look someone in the eye and tell them they are lying through their teeth.

im actually not sure but my own experience with being falsely accused of sexual violence may be running around the seventh somewhere. Might not be. I can’t remember if it occurred before or after that one guy asked me to not tell tales of the unit, instead promising an in-depth and honest conversation on such and then quitting BL shortly thereafter presumably to avoid said conversation.

EDIT: we all have time folks! I am not kidding, we are all stuck inside anyway. Go look through my posting history! I encourage it! Bring it on! I apologize in advance for all the false positive hits you will get from rapebird. But it’s possible to have an opinion that is more complex then a bumper sticker And yet still be consistent about it

[I3uster]

I don't care about your experiences when the topic is the assessment of Biden as someone who has any will to progress a progressive (heh) agenda.

That in the end is the salient point here, you believe Biden is a realistic step towards the same goal as Bernie has when the truth is ideologically Biden wants to stop it. Because these two people would in any reasonable parliamentary democracy be in two vastly different parties. They're just stuck together because you only got 2.

[Tobias]

You are absolutely right. 100%

we are looking at two people and our interpretations on their ability to project a progressive agenda. Full stop. It’s chicken or fish, just as you said. End of the day we are examine candidates for their ability and willingness to do what we want in exchange for our votes. So yes, mad props.

This reminds me of when Mac asked why I was willing to support warren and not sanders and I explained to him that while her willingness to eliminate the filibuster and ram things through on a party line vote made me a bit leery, all in all her ideas and plans moved her into my ideological favorite to win the White House. Bernie, soaring rhetoric aside, has ruled out the options that would get him his proposals past just as Biden ruled out voting for M4A. To put that another, neither candidate is willing to do what must be done. So you have to ask yourself which one does more to advance what I want.

i won’t waste your time by restating my points on the subject, but can you I wonder, have any doubt that I worked hard and diligently to make a choice between the two?

[I3uster]

Have you ever considered the mass movement approach to be workable or do you think that is an impossibility with the way American society works? Because I feel like if the message is that Republican senators can just dig their heels in and block everything you wish to do because they have by now realized its a tactic with no downsides, even a public option will not happen.

[Tobias]

To clarify, do you refer to the premise that a huge number of voters moving in a short period of time to embrace a position, in this case M4A, will force politicians to move with them to save their jobs?

I want to make sure I’m responding to the right premise before I give my thoughts, which are pretty in depth and full disclosure you must want to prepare for a rapebird monologue

[I3uster]

Yeah. We're of course assuming here that the Bernie union mobilization pays off here which, considering the way the primary went I'd say is a bit unrealistic at this point but considering the alternative has to pass the same obstacles I always found it more convincing than a purely electoral option.

[Tobias]

let’s go with that for a second. Let us now take, FOR THIS POST, AND THIS POST ONLY... the idea as complete truth that Bernie possess the ability to drive a hitherto sleeping giant of youth voters to the polls. Or let’s at least say that bernie’s ability to move numbers, volunteers and control a 24 hour media cycle gives him credibility to speak for a large segment of the American public. (Incidentally the latter I actually agree with and think the former idea has been disproven by the primary results, but for the purpose of this conversation we are going to assume both points are true)

now then, let’s restate the school of thought as accurately and succinctly as I can, the mass movement political premise states that all politicians are at heart political opportunists who will strive before all concerns to maintain and expand their power and status. Therefor, any thing could be passable if large enough members of the American voting public agreed with it because otherwise political opponents would cudgel them with whatever platform had such wide support leading to them either being force to adopt the policy no matter what their personal views on it are, or they will be voted out by another politician who promised to adopt the policy in question. Therefor anything can be passed if enough people agree with the policy or position.

ok. Now then, do you remember our conversation a while back in which I said something to the affect of “if a decade has passed, why couldn’t biden have changed his mind” the conversation was in reference to Biden supporting gay marriage IIRC. Let me expand on that thought slightly now before I address the larger point. At least once per decade, everyone should change their mind about something major. And I don’t mean about weather Girl Scout cookies are better then ice cream, I mean about a deeply held intellectual, spiritual, or political opinion. The kind of change that prior to coming to, you would have flown into a rate had someone suggested you were wrong. You would have looked at someone suggesting your idea was wrong as the only evidence needed to look at someone and come to the conclusion that absolutely nothing they could say had any value, simply because they held such an absurd premise.

and here is mine.

Yup. It’s the mass movement political theory.

10 years ago, less then a decade back, I would have told you that you could hang your hat on political selfishness and oppurtunism. I would have told you that at about 75% popularity, any possible bill idea or premise would not only become law but every politician in the country would swear to have always been for it and would have called any suggestion to the contrary fake news. I was as sure of that as I am that whiskey and outdoor jacuzzis are awesome.

which brings me to gun control. I live in Texas folks. Everyone who hates me or thinks of me as a corporate drone or a troll or whatever school of thought you have adopted so that you can maintain the premise that it’s impossible to be a true democratic Biden supporter, but I live in Texas. In the quarantine. I spend many a daily hours subtly using every last bit of charisma and therapeutic skill I have convincing my fellow Texans that the democrats are not the devil who want to take away their guns and freedoms. I have had a small amount of success. Here you can’t spit without hitting someone in a MAGA hat causing them to stumble into the trump pence 2020 bumper sticker on their pick up truck. But you know what’s harder to find right here in the lone star state then a Biden supporter? Someone who doesn’t approve of gun control. Every Texan on the gun range and off I speak with says guns aren’t toys. They are something to be respected, and there is no reason a meth jonesing scizophtenic 4 months from his last dose of invega should be able to pawn his mom’s laptop and buy a gun at an auction. And yet...?

what are the numbers for gun control? 80% minimum? Sometimes as high as 90? We even had a cultural event. Just as the corona virus currently acts as a cultural trigger that many M4A people think THIS will be the final piece needed to show why Americans most have government healthcare now, there was one for gun control. Children died in the shooting. Kids. The hope of our future. The entire nation grieved and raged. What happened? The closest thing that made it to the floor of the senate was a bill about arming oh my god what the fuck is wrong with my country teachers. That’s it. And that was several election cycles ago. And it’s not like the issue died! Bloomberg and a few other single issue donors spent billions over the last 6 or so years pushing the public consciousness on gun control legislation!

...and it hasn’t passed. Doesn’t look like it will. The mass movement premise which I took as straight up gospel...just proved to not be accurate. Does that mean it will never work? Hell no. But you have to change your thought patterns when reality proves they can’t be held the way you held them. You give up the power you have when you don’t spend it. And while the mass movement premise “can” effect change , it’s also an incontrovertible truth now that it might not. Furtherr, I think Obama’s failing during that time was because he himself believed it. He believed that in the face of public opinion McConnell would be forced to help with the bill. That error in thought cost us a moment. A moment when we could have had something. We could have made it better, and we didn’t. And people died for it.

so yeah, I support Biden. Because I understand the steps that exist between where we are at and where we are going.


...sorry, I said you should be ready for a monologue.
/phone rant over.
//sorry about the typos

[RacingeR]

Have you ever considered the mass movement approach to be workable or do you think that is an impossibility with the way American society works? Because I feel like if the message is that Republican senators can just dig their heels in and block everything you wish to do because they have by now realized its a tactic with no downsides, even a public option will not happen.

Just stating my own opinion on the matter, but I think that USA politics are stagnant enough and the upper political sphere is so detached from the rest of the country that mass movement wouldn't matter much to them. IMO the example on gun control that toby gives there demonstrates what I'm saying here. The general tendency seems to generally go to no change regardless of the actual dude in charge.

Realistically speaking, the coronavirus crisis makes it very hard to predict anything that'll happen, but a level look at Biden's profile shows me a very conservative, center-right at best (considering the world and not the US' fucked-up political spectrum) dude that'd probably oscillate towards the same stagnation previous presidents including Trump had.

There's hope of the general political-economical scenario of the whole world abandoning neoliberalism and shifting towards a more rational outlook, but we'd need a lot more work worldwide for that to happen. I guess the point I'm making to take a step down and into the healthcare topic, I think that if M4A or any similar law ends up passing, it will be due to a worldwide trend, and if so it would happen regardless of Biden or Sanders being president (while I can see Trump opposing it no matter what if he manages to get 4 more years).

Basically due to the tendency towards stagnation, plus the general influence of Big Pharma, etc. it is very optimistic to think it will happen, but I'm not putting it outside of the realm of possibility.

[Pendant]

So it's an Oligarchy and voting laughable spectacle. Direct action now?

[SpoonyViking]

so yeah, I support Biden. Because I understand the steps that exist between where we are at and where we are going.

I understand you think you're being pragmatical, but I wonder if maybe you're just inadvertently defending the status quo.

[Twelveseal]

The way I see it, M4A was as unlikely to happen with Sanders or Warren as it is with Biden... not because they don't have a better idea on how to achieve it or actual motivation to do so, but because they'd have to run it through Congress, and I'm not at all sure Schumer or whoever happens to be the Majority Leader in a theoretic Democrat run Senate would actually toss out the filibuster and go for simple majority on legislation. Especially since that would be handing a massive cudgel to the Reps on the usual swing of the political pendulum. Unless the Dems can not only get, but keep excitement and momentum for the next few cycles until their reforms become established and their judicial appointments shift court majorities... that move is basically going to hand the more politically efficient Reps a devastating weapon they'll turn right around and use at the first opportunity.

That said, we really, really, need to beat Trump, even if Biden is a shit. If we don't see down-ballot success for Dems, then when it comes time to handle the once-a-decade redistricting process, we're going to see another 10 years of entrenched, safe Republican seats and a Supreme Court willing to allow them to keep those districts, making it that much harder to achieve the sort of ground-level changes needed to really change peoples' way of thinking and affect their lives for the better.

[RacingeR]

So it's an Oligarchy and voting laughable spectacle. Direct action now?

I mean, I'm not in yankeeland, but from my outsider point of view I'd still think voting is important. As 12 says, Biden might be a shitty candidate but he's still better than Trump, and there are many reasons to want the repubs out of the government.

Personally, while I don't believe Sanders would be able to change much due to the aforementioned tendency towards stagnation and resistance to change, I still think he'd be the best option out of the three, merely because he'd at least move the USA's political spectrum towards the left, thus nudging it to something less batshit.

[Twelveseal]

Basically, Race has captured a big part of why I voted Bernie in the Primary. I feel that his victory would be both a shift in the political spectrum (showing that further left positions are actually viable here), and a possible, however unlikely, wake-up call to the Right here that Trumpism and Paleoconservatism isn't a viable political movement simply because the majority of the country won't stand for it. No matter how much some of us adore it.

[rxrx]

For a change of pace, Bojo is sent to the hospital it seems.

[Twelveseal]

Yup. Seems like Covid's giving him hell. Thing don't discriminate; rich or poor, politician or private citizen. It just hates on the old and the infirm. He's not the oldest politician out there, but he's not exactly a Spring chicken, either.

[aldeayeah]

I wouldn't be too worried for him unless his capillary symbiote detaches and starts looking around for a new host.

[Altima of the Gates]

In this conference Trump was pushing chloroquine extra hard and making sure Fauci couldn't give his opinion on it, ending the conference right after someone started pressing.
Guy is cracking with ever increasing speed when pressured and going into full "I'm taking my toys and going home!" childishness much quicker as these go on.

[asterism42]

In more virus news: big cats at a zoo in New York have contracted it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52177586

[Twelveseal]

Yeah. I've since heard it can be spread by cats and dogs, which does not please me. Usually animals are asymptomatic, but some can show symptoms. One of our fellow members said something about people killing their pets and the police doing so as well in China.

Also, Trump's obsession with that drug makes me wonder if he isn't investing in the company that makes it.

[rxrx]

Yeah. I've since heard it can be spread by cats and dogs, which does not please me. Usually animals are asymptomatic, but some can show symptoms. One of our fellow members said something about people killing their pets and the police doing so as well in China.

Also, Trump's obsession with that drug makes me wonder if he isn't investing in the company that makes it.

The studies between animals and the virus have been done way before USA, and no cats and dogs have been killed yet due to the virus. If studies confirmed that they can transmit virus, you think everyone will do nothing to these animals?