General News Thread

[Tobias]

I mean if we are jumping to that sort of thing I think the things I catch from my MAGA family members will hold up. But I’m referring to the level of vitriol from people who should be smart enough to not confuse the people who aren’t your allies with the people who are your enemies.

but when you narrow things down to US vs THEM! MY TEAM VS EVERYONE ELSE!

you lose nuance that you can’t afford not to have if you ever want to get anywhere in politics.

[Twelveseal]

Lol, the bitching is probably why some of our more Conservative members don't join in the discussion here XD.

[Tobias]

A Berniebro tweeted snake emojis at me and now I don't want people to have health care.

leave that poor straw man alone.

[I3uster]

People want things to get better and under centrist dem candidates they get worse, thus achieving the opposite of what they want.

Is there any clearer definition of an enemy? A more charitable framing that I often see is "obstacle" but an obstacle does not actively try to undermine you.

[Pendant]

but when you narrow things down to US vs THEM! MY TEAM VS EVERYONE ELSE!

you lose nuance that you can’t afford not to have if you ever want to get anywhere in politics.

This is a strange charge to levy especially when one of the most often repeated lines of attack against Bernie was that "he's not even a REAL Democrat". Literally castigating him for not joining the team. Talk about lacking in nuance

[I3uster]

The reality is the only electoral chance for the left is taking over the democratic party as a lot of dem voters are far to the left of the party anyway. You're not gonna get the party without an awkward civil war esque period, but the alternative is having the country in a permanent pendulum of far right to center right, and that is not a good trajectory when people already die of lack of medical care and medical poverty everywhere.

sometimes shit has to get worse to get better unfortunately

[Pendant]

The reality is the only electoral chance for the left is taking over the democratic party as a lot of dem voters are far to the left of the party anyway. You're not gonna get the party without an awkward civil war esque period, but the alternative is having the country in a permanent pendulum of far right to center right, and that is not a good trajectory when people already die of lack of medical care and medical poverty everywhere.

sometimes shit has to get worse to get better unfortunately

When I said this very thing Altima upbraided me.

[Tobias]

This is a strange charge to levy especially when one of the most often repeated lines of attack against Bernie was that "he's not even a REAL Democrat". Literally castigating him for not joining the team. Talk about lacking in nuance

And now you are moving the goal posts. Wanna throw in a devil’s proof in there or you want to skip to the part where you ask me to prove it, I go link to you one of about ten previous posts where I lay down very specifically why it’s my honest belief Biden is a better candidate for universal healthcare then Bernie is without once using electability or chance of becoming president, and then I can only assume you offer a diplomatic and heartfelt apology for allowing your passion to temporarily overwhelm your sense of decency and we have a good and productive conversation presumably over tea.

thats what always happens when we have this “how does a biden supporter also support universal healthcare” chat.

[I3uster]

When I said this very thing Altima upbraided me.

I mean there's hard data on this, its mostly kept afloat by (and sorry that I keep banging on this but it bears repeating!) political illiteracy.

like with the really awkward numbers of overlapping M4A support and biden support it would be incredibly interesting to see numbers of how many people think biden wants M4A contrary to his own statements on the matter

[Tobias]

There is less cognitive dissonance required to support both joe Biden and M4A then there is in supporting Bernie sanders and M4A.

And I’m not taking into account which of the two is more likely to be president. I mean I should, it’s nonsensical for me not to, but I’m not doing it anyway

[I3uster]

This is because you simply can not conceive of the idea that classical liberalism is an ideology people have and instead think that dems fall in 2 camps, pragmatic and idealist.

theres no way someone doesnt want people to have healthcare right

[Tobias]

Ok but you just said you don’t understand how one can support Biden and M4A. Call me a pragmatist or jaded or whatever, but it’s not wrong to say Part of my support for the program requires the ability and willingness to take the steps to actually do it. Biden has. Bernie has not.

[Trubo]

That’s a false equivalence. Biden beat Bernie by margins Hillary couldn’t dream of. I keep hearing this “Biden is the same as Hillary” talking point. But it’s not been held up by the primary. A primary is the ultimate arena by which to test assumptions. And considering the utter curb stomping Biden delivered to sanders. I find it at puzzling that many of bernie’s supporters continue to hold onto the premise Biden can’t motivate people to vote when he has spent the last few months being straight up better then sanders at doing just that.

Because if you actually watched what happened during that time, Biden did next to nothing to promote his reason to be out there, it was his surrogates and the media giving him billions of dollars in free advertising that did it. Remember, they asked South Carolina voters what the most important thing was for them to vote, and the overwhelming number one reason is "James Clyburn's endorsement".

I’m excited for Biden. I can’t wait. He wasn’t my first choice by the nominee doesn’t have to be my first choice to be a great president. And it’s not just me either. The vigors said the same thing. Not on twitter or in BL or on R/berniebro but in the one place that mattered, the voting booth.

Great. I'm not because people like Biden are the literal reason for the marked decline in expected life spans and wealth accumulation for those under 50, regardless of one's standard of living already. Biden has shown zero remorse for his actions, and is eager to put them into great use once again if he gets elected in November. I'm at the point where I frankly don't care who gets in the White House come 2020 if it's between Biden and Trump, because I'm planning to get the fuck out of this country within a year of this happening.

And since were on the subject I find it somewhat interesting that one of the things I hear a lot is “well why don’t more Biden people talk about him online?” Well maybe because if you do you get whined at, hitched at, and accused of being everything from stupid to supporting rape. Hell I have gotten a few pieces of that right here on the ole BL.

Calling a person out on their obvious flaws and hypocrisy is perfectly fine for discussion, especially when following the standards that they laid out when it comes to addressing issues pertaining to them.

And Bernie can’t get support from African Americans, suburban women, and elderly voters.

Partially incorrect Tobias. Bernie overwhelmingly beat Biden in the Black vote when it comes to 40 and under. Bernie still had a pretty solid 30% or more rating with the others you mentioned, and those same people still rated Bernie as one of the most trusted when it comes to issues concerning the economy and healthcare. If Bernie was the presumptive nominee, they would be far more enthusiastic to fall in line behind him than all the demographics that Biden is failing to attract.

So what? The only difference between the two is one is a voting block that is actually worth pursuing. If the premise of your voting style is “give me what I want and maaaayyyyyybe I will support you, perhaps, we will see” then it’s your own fault if a candidate decides its not worth jumping through your hoops and goes after a more reliable vote.

Except it's the argument that you'll withhold your vote if you don't get things you want that actually gives you leverage. That's why Biden will continue to move Right to try and solidify the supposed Centrist and Right-leaning people that could be swayed to go to Trump. To loosely paraphrase what Biden's wife said in an interview a month or two ago "I know Biden isn't the guy you want that will pursue the policies you desire, but you'll just have to swallow your hesitation because he's better than Trump".

Biden doesn't have to pick a VP or other prominent staff member that will attract Black people because, short of Obama or Michelle coming onto the stage, no one else really does from the people he could likely pick. If Biden actually cared about winning, he'd pick several strongly affiliated Bernie or Warren people, but hey, we know what his proposed staff looks like, and none of them are on it. He doesn't have to pick them because they are blindly falling in line with the whole "vote Blue no matter who" drivel.

[Pendant]

And now you are moving the goal posts. Wanna throw in a devil’s proof in there or you want to skip to the part where you ask me to prove it, I go link to you one of about ten previous posts where I lay down very specifically why it’s my honest belief Biden is a better candidate for universal healthcare then Bernie is without once using electability or chance of becoming president, and then I can only assume you offer a diplomatic and heartfelt apology for allowing your passion to temporarily overwhelm your sense of decency and we have a good and productive conversation presumably over tea.

thats what always happens when we have this “how does a biden supporter also support universal healthcare” chat.

Sigh. I'm honestly not trying to offend you, man. I will cop to being frustrated by seeing "forces" who probably agree on some first principles with me stand in the way of quite moderate social democratic reforms over and over again. Maybe that rubs people the wrong way but at this point I'm tired of it.

[Trubo]

Ok but you just said you don’t understand how one can support Biden and M4A. Call me a pragmatist or jaded or whatever, but it’s not wrong to say Part of my support for the program requires the ability and willingness to take the steps to actually do it. Biden has. Bernie has not.

Because expecting Biden to propose and defend an actually good public option is nonsensical given his life's voting history. He will roll over at the first sign of Republican crying and capitulate to every single demand of theirs. We saw this when Pelosi of all people had to relieve him when it came to negotiating with Paul Ryan back during Obama's years.

[I3uster]

biden begrudgingly supports a small twiddling on the dials of obamacare and if i were a betting man with a mind read machine im gonna guess him and all the other neolibs just pray the reps blow it up so it doesnt fall on their heads

The problem is, and this is what European parties with ideology similar to the democrats have to face (like the German FPD), is that dismantling these services is incredibly unpopular and establishing them gives you Kreisky numbers, so you just undermine them enough to render them effectively unuseable.

this is something you currently see in action in britain

[Tobias]

Not if you aren’t willing to lay down markers. This is where my vote is worth. Here is where you can guarantee my support. This is a line for me. If you can’t commit then candidates shouldn’t commit to you. And also it’s somewhat amusing to say “Bernie had the under 40 black vote!” when that was less then what, 15%? 10%?

might as well say Biden had a great number of youth voters because every 24 year old named Steve von Miller the third voted Biden.

biden begrudgingly supports a small twiddling on the dials of obamacare and if i were a betting man with a mind read machine im gonna guess him and all the other neolibs just pray the reps blow it up so it doesnt fall on their heads

The problem is, and this is what European parties with ideology similar to the democrats have to face (like the German FPD), is that dismantling these services is incredibly unpopular and establishing them gives you Kreisky numbers, so you just undermine them enough to render them effectively unuseable.

this is something you currently see in action in britain

Yup! That’s what Obama did with Obamacare! And it worked. It worked so well that trump McConnell and a republican Supreme Court haven’t been able to kill it. And Biden’s plan will grow that in a plausible way. That’s why I support it.

[Trubo]

Speaking of Britain, an interesting article got posted in another forum/channel I visit.

[I3uster]

Speaking of Britain, an interesting article got posted in another forum/channel I visit.

Yeah I talked about that a bit ago but nobody responded.

weird stuff, nothing will be reevaluated after this, depressing

[Trubo]

Not if you aren’t willing to lay down markers. This is where my vote is worth. Here is where you can guarantee my support. This is a line for me. If you can’t commit then candidates shouldn’t commit to you. And also it’s somewhat amusing to say “Bernie had the under 40 black vote!” when that was less then what, 15%? 10%?

might as well say Biden had a great number of youth voters because every 24 year old named Steve von Miller the third voted Biden.

Then don't repeat the scapegoat excuse of Hillary's loss in 2016 and what I expect to be Biden's loss in 2020 when these demographics don't come out and vote for your candidate, especially when empirical evidence proves that to be bullshit.

Yup! That’s what Obama did with Obamacare! And it worked. It worked so well that trump McConnell and a republican Supreme Court haven’t been able to kill it. And Biden’s plan will grow that in a plausible way. That’s why I support it.

They already did away with the mandatory fine if you don't have a plan from the Marketplace or your own health insurance. That's already sealed its fate unless something drastic isn't taken in the next 4-8 years. Knowing Biden, he won't make any fundamental changes in who can qualify since it'll still be tied to employment, and any improvements will have equally shitty demerits. Wouldn't surprise me if part-timers got removed from qualifying or some such nonsense.