General News Thread

[I3uster]

Yup! That’s what Obama did with Obamacare! And it worked. It worked so well that trump McConnell and a republican Supreme Court haven’t been able to kill it. And Biden’s plan will grow that in a plausible way. That’s why I support it.

Not really sure you understood that but I'll try breaking it down a bit easier since there was a non American party in it and all and I know how Americans handle non-American politics usually.

There is an ideology that thinks corporations are good government bad which will be happy with a corporate based subsidized Obamacare style model.
There is an ideology that thinks corporations are bad government good which will establish medicare for all.

Medicare for all requires you to uproot a sector (and its not all, its only a sector, but its a pretty wealthy one!) of corporate interest in American politics. People who think a) don't even want this fight ideologically, they don't need to be bribed into it.

if someone who thinks a), something you know by their voting record, tells you they want b) and you buy it you are not very bright

[Tobias]

They already did away with the mandatory fine if you don't have a plan from the Marketplace or your own health insurance. That's already sealed its fate unless something drastic isn't taken in the next 4-8 years. Knowing Biden, he won't make any fundamental changes in who can qualify since it'll still be tied to employment, and any improvements will have equally shitty demerits. Wouldn't surprise me if part-timers got removed from qualifying or some such nonsense.

Ok I’ll actually bite on that, where are you getting that? Be cause a quick skim on google which I actually did to make sure you didn’t see something I didn’t (I do actually check when someone says something I hadn’t heard, it keeps me honest) but I can’t find anything that doesn’t say Obamacare is still easily at enrollment numbers to keep the program running fine for the foreseeable future

Not really sure you understood that but I'll try breaking it down a bit easier since there was a non American party in it and all and I know how Americans handle non-American politics usually.

There is an ideology that thinks corporations are good government bad which will be happy with a corporate based subsidized Obamacare style model.
There is an ideology that thinks corporations are bad government good which will establish medicare for all.

Medicare for all requires you to uproot a sector (and its not all, its only a sector, but its a pretty wealthy one!) of corporate interest in American politics. People who think a) don't even want this fight ideologically, they don't need to be bribed into it.

if someone who thinks a), something you know by their voting record, tells you they want b) and you buy it you are not very bright

I know. I also know that I can look at biden's plan and see a chain of events that leads to M4A. I also know bernie's plan cannot establish a path to M4A. therefor, I have to support the one that actually makes sense.

[I3uster]

i must support the guy who wants to sink the boat if i want to keep the boat afloat because of a specific scenario i envision where hell pressure the boat sinking faction masterfully despite having no incentive to do so

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the greastest trick of neoliberal thought is really preloading people with a bunch of assumptions and making them think its logic and not ideology hot damn

[Tobias]

see you hold a premise that Biden is somehow secretly against the same principles that he championed during the Obama administration. I have more or less made my peace with the fact that you and I disagree on that and I would recomend you do the same as it saves a lot of net frustration.

[Trubo]

Those projections weren't made with a pandemic completely shocking the system.

Premiums for the cheapest/terrible Marketplace plan are something like 350 USD/month for a single person in a relatively cheap area, such as Texas. You tell me where these 26 million unemployed people, as of now, are going to find that money after their unemployment benefits end and they no longer get covered by their previous employer's insurance, if they had any in the first place. Not to mention that the 4 stimulus bills still don't actually cover coronavirus treatment, only testing last I remember when I checked.

[I3uster]

I'm trying to give you historical examples of this being an actual school of thought a lot of democratic people hold, its not a conspiracy or anything, its a normal belief that is well represented in countless political systems all over the globe. People proudly call themselves liberals to this day when no other ostensibly progressive party elsewhere in the world would do this (because they know what liberal actually means). And its consistent with Bidens stated beliefs or voting records.

if i wanted to sell you on him being a worshipper of baphomet that eats kids id get it man but this is really not exactly conspiratorial territory

[Alternative Ice]

That’s a false equivalence. Biden beat Bernie by margins Hillary couldn’t dream of. I keep hearing this “Biden is the same as Hillary” talking point. But it’s not been held up by the primary. A primary is the ultimate arena by which to test assumptions. And considering the utter curb stomping Biden delivered to sanders. I find it at puzzling that many of bernie’s supporters continue to hold onto the premise Biden can’t motivate people to vote when he has spent the last few months being straight up better then sanders at doing just that.

wat biden has gotten lower numbers than hillary in two thirds of the states that have voted so far

[Trubo]

see you hold a premise that Biden is somehow secretly against the same principles that he championed during the Obama administration. I have more or less made my peace with the fact that you and I disagree on that and I would recomend you do the same as it saves a lot of net frustration.

The principles of shipping American jobs overseas in the interest of his corporate donors' bottom line? Nah, there's no secret there. If we're still on the healthcare issue, Biden really didn't champion any effort towards getting Obamacare passed in the first place, unless you consider capitulating to all of the "moderate" Democrats and Republicans demands to make it the bloated expensive shitshow it currently is.

[Tobias]

Those projections weren't made with a pandemic completely shocking the system.

Premiums for the cheapest/terrible Marketplace plan are something like 350 USD/month for a single person in a relatively cheap area, such as Texas. You tell me where these 26 million unemployed people, as of now, are going to find that money after their unemployment benefits end and they no longer get covered by their previous employer's insurance, if they had any in the first place. Not to mention that the 4 stimulus bills still don't actually cover coronavirus treatment, only testing last I remember when I checked.

...they either signed up for the program prior to the disease or arent being covered by the ACA. While hospital bills and what not are being stressed, that effect is actually not damaging the ACA because the emergancy funds for such are either being financed by issuing emergency debt or though the CARES act (stupid, trumpy name, but whatever)

So again, and im actually asking here in case you do know something I and the continued searching I am doing right now to on google in case you know something cant find. Is there any actual reasons to think the ACA isnt alive and well right now or is that just something you kind of thought would be happening due to the pandemic

I'm trying to give you historical examples of this being an actual school of thought a lot of democratic people hold, its not a conspiracy or anything, its a normal belief that is well represented in countless political systems all over the globe. People proudly call themselves liberals to this day when no other ostensibly progressive party elsewhere in the world would do this (because they know what liberal actually means). And its consistent with Bidens stated beliefs or voting records.

if i wanted to sell you on him being a worshipper of baphomet that eats kids id get it man but this is really not exactly conspiratorial territory

yeah, but liberalism is supposed to be an embrace of logic. and bernie's plan doesnt have that. Truly. It doesnt. Bernie's plan for M4A will not actually work. Not may not work. Not probably wont work. It wont work., It 100% straight up has no chance of working. therefor even if you support M4A, it doesnt make a lot of sense to support him.

Biden's plan probably will. It very well might. will it definitely do it? eh. that goes to far. But Biden's plan uses the American system and the American sentiment in such a way that the people will accept and neither the courts nor a later republican president will be able to kill it. Thats good enough for me.

[I3uster]

yeah, but liberalism is supposed to be an embrace of logic. and bernie's plan doesnt have that. Truly. It doesnt. Bernie's plan for M4A will not actually work. Not may not work. Not probably wont work. It wont work., It 100% straight up has no chance of working. therefor even if you support M4A, it doesnt make a lot of sense to support him.

Biden's plan probably will. It very well might. will it definitely do it? eh. that goes to far. But Biden's plan uses the American system and the American sentiment in such a way that the people will accept and neither the courts nor a later republican president will be able to kill it. Thats good enough for me.

do you have, actual difficulty parsing the words im saying or are you just screwing with me now cuz i mean, that is your opinion and i didnt contest it

the question is does biden even have the will to do so, and i can give you a long living political tradition that seeks to optimize the process and abhors universal programs, and show you how biden adheres to it, and you keep pretending these are just two dudes who have similar beliefs but one guy is practical and the other idealist

like is it hard to get what people mean when they say centrist, neoliberal, classical liberal? these arent insults they mean things

[Tobias]

again, there is a premise you have that not only do I not agree with, but is so far outside my understanding that I opted to simply come to grips with it.

you have a different mindset about it that appears to be biden is such a secret oligarch that he would nefariously impede his own successes in order to please his corporate masters.

I do not believe that. I would suggest you do as I did. Go ahead and make peace with the fact that I believe that for his faults Biden is a good man who will do what he honestly believes is the best for the american people, even if you dont believe that. I will make my peace with that fact that you look at him as at best a political opportunist to craven and to interested in maintaining his own power and stature to truly effect bold changes, even if I dont believe that.

we may not agree with each other but it will save our poor keyboards some wear and tear.

Edit: needed a clarity rebuild

[Laserman]

Also, the link to the Vietnam thing: here.

In not even three months since the first known U.S. deaths from COVID-19, more lives have now been lost to the coronavirus pandemic on U.S. soil than the 58,220 Americans who died over nearly two decades in Vietnam.

Early Tuesday evening ET, the U.S. death toll reached 58,365, according to Johns Hopkins University.


While the number of lives lost in the U.S. during the pandemic and the U.S. death toll in that war are roughly the same now, the death rate from the coronavirus in America is considerably higher. It now stands at about 17.6 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants.


During 1968, the deadliest year for the U.S. in Vietnam, the death toll of 16,899 occurred at about half the pandemic's rate — 8.5 troops were killed for every 100,000 U.S. residents.

Oh god.

[I3uster]

theyre not nefarious oligarchs they are the third strongest faction in the eu parliament for example

parties on the liberal spectrum have been governing parties in european national goverments too

they just tend to not be super popular in the same vein social democratic parties are

this isnt some kind of hardcore theory like this is almost as basic as "what are basic tennets of the left/right split in my respective country", you can get the gist of this ideology by skimming a wikipedia article, it will be worth it for future political discussions trust me

[Tobias]

I understand the premise. I even recognize the influence in American society. where you and i differ is in my book if 4 years down the line president Biden looks at the biden option, realizes that half of the americans on the ACA are on it and more will be transferring over, in order to prevent it from becoming the de facto M4A it will be he will undermine it in some fashion in order to prevent systematic upheaval, and to continue currying favor with the corporate Power That Be

I do not think he would. I think he would allow things to live and die as the american people decide.

[I3uster]

well maybe you are right and hes a perfect channel for the will of the people, an empty vessel to be filled

im gonna err more on the side of him being more like the other 45 dudes

[Tobias]

44.

grover cleveland was counted twice.

[I3uster]

was he a bodhisattva

[Tobias]

no, see you would know if he was because the presi-king in fate go would be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more awesome

[Trubo]

...they either signed up for the program prior to the disease or arent being covered by the ACA. While hospital bills and what not are being stressed, that effect is actually not damaging the ACA because the emergancy funds for such are either being financed by issuing emergency debt or though the CARES act (stupid, trumpy name, but whatever)

So again, and im actually asking here in case you do know something I and the continued searching I am doing right now to on google in case you know something cant find. Is there any actual reasons to think the ACA isnt alive and well right now or is that just something you kind of thought would be happening due to the pandemic

First, where are you finding that the ACA is already well-funded? Unless I'm reading something wrong, the CBO is expecting an ever increasing deficit related to ACA alone.

Second, it's mostly my speculation based on what we've seen reported already.

Fast forward to when open enrollment happens this November. Using the current 26 million unemployment figure we have now, combined with proportions talked about back at the beginning of April when we only had 6M case, we're probably looking at ~9M people filing for a Marketplace plan because of losing their employer's insurance. I expect this number to be greater for two reasons, we're nowhere near peak unemployment yet and we're probably underestimating just how many small businesses have failed because of how completely inadequate the small business protection parts of the CARES acts have been, but let's just use numbers we currently have and call it a day.

The measures mentioned in that article to buoy up the system were reliant on several things, including the mandatory fine for no insurance + having greater than effectively 0% federal interest rates. Both of these things aren't tenable now due to the mandatory fine being found unconstitutional and Republicans being Republicans by slashing that interest rate to make the stock market go up. Temporary provisions to increase funding aren't very likely to happen given Republican leadership being deadset on only doing "fine tuning" as they see fit, and Pelosi's halfhearted comments now about trying to do an UBI after bailing out corporate interest after corporate interest.

I'm expecting deficit related to ACA to at least double in the next few years. Given that GDP is likely to crash pretty hard this year, (currently estimated to be a 31% contraction) and Congress' sheer stubborness to actually do anything, I don't see the ACA continuing to offer its level of care as projections last year were planning.

[Tobias]

yeeeeah, but those cost overlays are built into the budget. and as democrats control the house, thats not changing. And more people signing up for the ACA wouldn't just be adding in people stricken from the virus, it would also draw in the healthy people who want insurance as...well, insurance. More people jumping on the program, even if they are using more of the services, also means more premiums being fed into the markets. Hell im not even sure that when the dust settles 18 months from now and we finally have a vaccine the markets wont be the strongest they have ever been due to the number of americans who want insurance.

Again despite some pretty hard looking since your original post I can find no information to suggest the ACA is in any danger of folding, and thats not counting what I just said about people rushing to the marketplaces. You are treating it like that would be a bad thing but as far as I can tell that would literally be what the law is for.