General News Thread

[I3uster]

Your example was waiting for the collapse to make things better. I offered an alternative how to make things better before the collapse, I think you misread that.

As said before the idea that Biden can even do an incremental change when he refuses to revert actions by republicans that made things worse makes no sense.

if the last guy takes one step to the right and u then vote for the guy who wants to stand still it means you are moving right

[LJ3]

No?

It means at the moment we're not moving right. Whether the next step is to the left or right is another thing.

[asterism42]

No?

It means at the moment we're not moving right. Whether the next step is to the left or right is another thing.

what is this, the fuckin red queen's race? we have to move twice as fast to just get back to where we started

[Twelveseal]

what is this, the fuckin red queen's race? we have to move twice as fast to just get back to where we started

Basically. Problem is, it's pretty clear that the motivation to do so doesn't exist here, just by Biden's polling. Unless the coronavirus culls a big portion of both the Republicans and the moderate Democrats that are keeping us on course, it's unlikely that the will to actually take the needed steps isn't there in enough quantity to accomplish that goal.

[Tobias]

watching el presidente rage quit the press conference after being verbally bitch slapped by an asian american woman was worth the price of admission.

he really, really doesnt like it when women arent intimidated by him

[rxrx]

El Presidente doesn't like anyone that aren't intimidated by him. He should really stop these press conference since it provides useful other than pure entertainment for the people.

[Tobias]

He thinks they make him look smart.

no seriously, he does. He always thinks he knocked it out of the park right up until “executive time” when he starts watching cable news and seeing people make fun of him.

reports from the whitehouse note that it wasn’t till a day to a day and a half later that he really processed that his “let them eat bleach” conference wasn’t quite the example of brave outside the box solutions focused but of medical prognostication he thought it was

[rxrx]

Acting on reflexes isn't something good for the leader of any country. He's lucky that Americans are conditioned to take any shit from their leaders.

[LJ3]

what is this, the fuckin red queen's race? we have to move twice as fast to just get back to where we started

I would say so.

It's not great.

[Twelveseal]

It's less that we're conditioned and more that any and all brakes on the failed political leader train have been disabled outside of his re-election bid or murder. And the overwhelming majority of the country doesn't seem to think going to prison/dying for the chance at killing him is a good tradeoff. Especially since it'd just make him a martyr if it worked rather than solve the underlying problems. He'd become a hero who died for his country, not some idiot who was removed from power for the greater good. His followers would see it as an affirmation of their own beliefs and opinions, energizing them even more and likely inciting more political violence.

Much like with Coronavirus itself, there's not really a good solution. Biden is bad, Trump is worse, but Biden winning likely won't cause the positive change in the long-term that another Trump term might. We're currently working on a choice between mitigating the damage done by Trump and getting someone less toxic in power, and the decision to let Trump wreck as much of the country and the world as he possibly can in the hopes that this somehow convinces enough people that a "far" Left position is needed that it actually happens. And then wins.


​ Otherwise there's no point and it just makes us tilt more to the Right more, because the Left can't win elections.

Like, here's a hypothetical scenario; imagine that there's a mass write-in vote for Bernie. They young chime in for Bernie. This serves as a spoiler and Trump wins the popular vote and the Electoral College both. The Dems adopt more Left policies. The Reps, in turn, know that most of the Dem's reliable base is moderate, so they just promote someone further to the Left as another spoiler who forces the Dem platform Left in order to keep those irregular voters. They do this because they know it'll push the moderates into staying home, voting moderate Rep, or leaving the party. This leaves the Dems with a much reduced voting base, because they've lost their older voters, especially their older black voters, and can henceforth not win until the older voting blocks just die off and the Millennials become the main voters.

[rxrx]

The thing is, people outside of American wants Trump to win since he effectively destroyed the country's reputation built since WWII with just 1 term. They are more afraid of him pressing the button, but other than that, having him win, even with how he deal with the virus is good material to show how capitalism at its logical end sees regular peeps and help see the dangers of democracy when you have mindless drones voting. Even if we know it is more complicated than that, it is easy to sell this view, just like how easy it is for the politicians in America is blaming others for almost everything.

[Twelveseal]

Of course. There's always going to be propaganda. In this case, there's truth to it. Capitalism sees everything in a moral and ethical vacuum; neither of these forces exist, only the extremes of profit and loss. Humans are just one more resource to be expended. Likewise, there's some merit in the concept of mindless drones. One doesn't have to look far to see Green Day's point. Democracy only works when people are reasonably informed and can make appropriate decisions. However, with misinformation rampant and the actual decisionmaking power locked squarely into the hands of the ultra-wealthy, it's obvious Democracy isn't working as intended. The fact that these same problems are widespread, not just in the Western world, but across the whole of the 1st World nations. Globalism has done wonders for creating a world-wide ruling class.

People worry about a one-world government, but personally, I think it's already here and has been for a long time.

[rxrx]

People didn't factor in how powers being locked in the hands of the ultra wealthy makes democracy void since they force you to pick between the same people wearing different masks. On the other hand, populism is deadly and might lead to worse scenarios, so it is tough to make changes that is good for the people.

I know I've said this before, but herd immunity without vaccine is murder and a case of curbing the weak and old, not very humane. However, no government officials are taking the blame or being make to pay for the shit they have done. It goes against what I've learnt during my education, and makes me feel old all of a sudden.

[Twelveseal]

Less old, and more weary. No one wants to take responsibility for this because there's no way you can really atone for it. Being completely honest here, there was no realistic way the globe could have prepared for this. No one had the resources to spend to make the PPE, the spare cash to pay for their populations, the stockpiled food to keep them fed, the ventillators, the trained medical staff, the plans and procedures and testing resources. I mean, yeah, we could have all been better prepared for what we were being told was inevitable, and there are some people who are clearly more at fault for that than others, or who bear direct responsibility for specific failures in the process. It was just a matter of time, but one we didn't know when. It's not like everyone can realistically stockpile that kind of thing and be fully prepared for a pandemic all the time.

And I mean, how exactly are we supposed to make these people "pay," for screwing up? I mean, sure, there are definitely some people who should be punished for active malfeasance. The crap about selling stocks comes to mind. Or Trump pushing things as cures that clearly aren't. Or probably aren't. That's what our legal systems and government watchdogs are for. Trump is essentially above the law until he's out of office, but I suspect when he's out he'll be seeing some interesting lawsuits over his behavior in office... likely from the DoJ itself, in some cases. But it's not like we can just form up mobs and lynch these people when the country is in the middle of a highly contagious pandemic, where the mob is likely to become a hotspot for the disease and the people targeted are still needed to provide some degree of leadership, regardless of how incompetant or corrupt they happen to be.

And yes, we did somewhat factor in what happens when all the power gets concentrated at the top. It's just that those who have power have been steadily eroding the failsafes that kept them from gaining more by organizing the people under their ideologies and rigging the judiciary and legislative branches. It's been a slow process that just keeps getting worse because there's not method to roll it back that isn't already under the control of the same social class outside of direct violence. And that's all but doomed to fail.

[rxrx]

No one can have prepared for this, that's true. The problem is some are not even trying enough and face this issue like how it is suppose to be: a health problem and not political problem. Pointing fingers is not going to stop it, and those that should be responsible are not.

Removing people from position and lawsuits might be a start, but they are rich and powerful enough to get away.

[Twelveseal]

Basically, yeah. Our legal system is blatantly tiered; the wealthy are usually able to walk away with a hefty fine that would make the poor weep, while the poor face long prison sentences for the same sorts of crimes on a smaller scale. Some people can be removed from their positions, yes, but perhaps not ironically, the local leaders tend to be handling this mess better than the folks at the top and are accordingly seeing their support and popularity rise.

Meanwhile, the folks at the top are the ones most protected from removal and are also managing to be the biggest fuckups. It's actually not surprising at all. If you have to worry about losing your job if you suck at it, you tend to do a good job. But if you don't have to worry about losing it, or any other kind of punishment for that matter, you're not exactly as inclined to do your best. That said, in this case, the guy at the very top is an utter moron and a sleaze besides, but because of how much his supporters love that, the usual methods of removing someone who breaks the law or just fails miserably won't work.

[rxrx]

Basically, yeah. Our legal system is blatantly tiered; the wealthy are usually able to walk away with a hefty fine that would make the poor weep, while the poor face long prison sentences for the same sorts of crimes on a smaller scale. Some people can be removed from their positions, yes, but perhaps not ironically, the local leaders tend to be handling this mess better than the folks at the top and are accordingly seeing their support and popularity rise.

Meanwhile, the folks at the top are the ones most protected from removal and are also managing to be the biggest fuckups. It's actually not surprising at all. If you have to worry about losing your job if you suck at it, you tend to do a good job. But if you don't have to worry about losing it, or any other kind of punishment for that matter, you're not exactly as inclined to do your best. That said, in this case, the guy at the very top is an utter moron and a sleaze besides, but because of how much his supporters love that, the usual methods of removing someone who breaks the law or just fails miserably won't work.

And it seems the sleazy moron is going to win cause his opposition can decide to kill each other or kill him first.

[Twelveseal]

Sure. Especially in here. Brings us back to the debate point though; is it better to pile on with Biden in the hopes of dumping Trump, even if it means that the party stays to the Center? Or is it better to throw caution to the winds and write-in Bernie, knowing that it would likely mean 4 more years of Trump and Republicans pushing everything further in the direction they've been going in the hopes that it will cause a big swing back to the Left by convincing the moderates in both parties that it's all too much?

I can't help but feel like maybe the second option isn't going to work, because the people we'd be trying to convince have had longer to hear the message of the Left and have decided not to listen. After all, it's mostly the older voters, the reliable voters, that are keeping the Dems to the Center. They've been around the block and seen and heard the positions, and for whatever reason have chosen to stay where they are politically.

[aldeayeah]

Your example was waiting for the collapse to make things better. I offered an alternative how to make things better before the collapse, I think you misread that.

I can't quite comment on your part, but I'll try to clarify mine. I acknowledge that the current course leads to a collapse. I also acknowledge that the system is rigged in a way that prevents a swift, clean correction of that course. Last, I acknowledge that the collapse will eventually tear down the system.

Give all that, my response is to try and pile on small course corrections within the existing system, not to precipitate the collapse. So, certainly not accelerationism, more like the opposite.

Western democratic systems may be rotten, but I'm wary of the alternatives. In most cases I'll advocate a flawed, ineffective system of checks and balances, over giving a ton of unchecked power/agency to an executive, and being left at the mercy of a power-tripping politician's benevolence, or lack thereof.

I.e. the ineffective/neutered power that western governments wield is effectively a soft form of anarchy which is actually not such a bad place to be IMO

(Of course it's pretty bad in an emergency, and even worse in a long-term emergency; we're likely to become like the proverbial lobster that doesn't notice the rise in the water's temperature until it's halfway cooked)

[mAc Chaos]

Trump in governance is not really all that different from Republicans that came before him (with the exception of the corona check which is a marked breach from Republican ideology).

I just want to know what your path to changing the fucked up American system is because most peoples answer is somewhere in the "use gun" area and we know that's not gonna work with the US military as it is.

During the 2016 election, people asked me how I could support him when he would be so crazy. I replied that either he'd actually follow through on promises of change and we'd get something we normally could never get, or it'd all be hot air and he'd just be like every other Republican and it would make no difference.

Now you see! Too bad though.