General News Thread

[AsGryffynn]

Let's pretend for a second that Stalin and Mao didn't exist and their countries haven't already jumped to frontrunners for "Most Atrocious". How do you propose this rule works? If Sealand decides they wanna get in on that, are they allowed to mass murder and invade? What if Germany splits again, does their record split, too, or do both East Germany and West Germany count as Germany? What if Hawaii secedes; yeah, they were part of the US, but they were one of the nicer States, so can they enslave the people of an island or two? For Greece, are you counting Ancient Greece and their time as part of the Ottoman Empire, or just this recent version? Please, tell me how you propose we allot the right to commit crimes against humanity.

Sealand gets off on the fact that their atrocities would amount to robbing a bank. For new states, I guess they might get a reset if they act in a divergent way, as for Hawaii, my guess is that they can treat the islands around them like vassals.

I will most definitely not count something from an era where Greece wasn't even a thing as we understand it.

Stalin and Mao get a free pass because one did it out of paranoia and power hunger instead of running a "White Russia" policy and the other one did it out of sheer idiocy.

I mean, did people really have such short term memories they forget Thatcher planned to send soldiers to stop a strike?

Well, currently it seems like it's a "First Come, First Served" basis. We could go the "Communist" route of atrocities spread equally across the world's population. That would be "fair," so to speak. We could also stick with a "Capitalist" model where only the most powerful nations are allowed to commit Crimes Against Humanity. Or we could go full "Anarchist," and let everyone have at it.

To be honest, we seem to be mixing 1,3, and 4 a bit these days. =/

What makes me laugh is that Putin has the easiest way of deflecting way and so does Xi: "I'm not going to be lectured by the man whose men killed an innocent young man because he was black".

I know it's extremely "and you're lynching negroes" but hey, a kill is a kill, and a wrongful death weights on the country regardless.

Its okay since USA is the one doing it.

[rxrx]

Seriously, all those on top think and act the same regardless of nationality, race or gender. When you have strikes and protests, do not ask why, just put the them down with the police or the military. Dealing with the people asking the question is way easier than solving the question itself.

[RacingeR]

What I can ask, and I am asking, is that people do not try to excuse the wrongdoing of other countries because of the actions of United States.

Yes, I agree with your point here, I don't think an atrocity can justify another atrocity, even in retaliation. However, it is still important to not lose perspective and remember that the Western side of the world is equally murky, and remember what happens when the US starts agitating the permanent specter of the External Enemy.

I wrote what I did earlier in answer to the ignorance expressed in the post I quoted: this being that the USA is commiting serious crimes still right now, and that no, it doesn't really "try" to do better in as much as the government sweeps everything under a rug and then starts all over again. I find the lack of... not even lack of knowledge, but the lack of consideration of these facts a lot more disturbing that China's attempts to project power, because people have a strong tendency to let themselves be deceived and sink into denial when it comes to the crimes of first world countries.

Though I guess that honestly as a south american it is going to be very hard to not feel a certain amount of hypocrisy coming from this, but I can't really deny it per se. What I can do is attempt to correct ignorance when I see it and try to educate people on the facts, if I feel like it is worth bothering to do so.

[Maltese]

Sealand gets off on the fact that their atrocities would amount to robbing a bank. For new states, I guess they might get a reset if they act in a divergent way, as for Hawaii, my guess is that they can treat the islands around them like vassals.

I will most definitely not count something from an era where Greece wasn't even a thing as we understand it.

Stalin and Mao get a free pass because one did it out of paranoia and power hunger instead of running a "White Russia" policy and the other one did it out of sheer idiocy.

So, you're saying crimes against humanity are okay if the country is weak enough, different enough from what they used to be, or if the leadership is paranoid or idiotic. I am of the belief that crimes against humanity are bad and countries should try to avoid committing them.

Seriously, all those on top think and act the same regardless of nationality, race or gender. When you have strikes and protests, do not ask why, just put the them down with the police or the military. Dealing with the people asking the question is way easier than solving the question itself.

That is simply untrue. Do you honestly believe every protest ever has been met with only force and failure?

[rxrx]

That is simply untrue. Do you honestly believe every protest ever has been met with only force and failure?

No, but it depends on the perseverance of the participants after meeting force to stop their efforts and how much support they can garner.

I'm not saying ALL protest fail, but the knee-jerk reaction is to put em down first. Remember Occupy Wall Street？ How about the more recent BLM?

[Maltese]

What I can do is attempt to correct ignorance when I see it and try to educate people on the facts, if I feel like it is worth bothering to do so.

I appreciate it (and, not gonna lie, feel a little honored to be considered worth educating). I apologize for minimizing the innumerable hardships other countries have faced due to United States foreign policy and will endeavour not to repeat that mistake.

I wrote what I did earlier in answer to the ignorance expressed in the post I quoted: this being that the USA is commiting serious crimes still right now, and that no, it doesn't really "try" to do better in as much as the government sweeps everything under a rug and then starts all over again. I find the lack of... not even lack of knowledge, but the lack of consideration of these facts a lot more disturbing that China's attempts to project power, because people have a strong tendency to let themselves be deceived and sink into denial when it comes to the crimes of first world countries.

I agree that it is horrifying that nations can be upended and thousands upon thousands will die because of the ignorance and apathy of large swathes of the United States electorate. In some regards, it is a system that can end up much worse than any other. But if the people learn of what is happening, if they develop values that tell them right from wrong, if they demand it from their government, candidates will capitalize on that.

I'm not saying ALL protest fail, but the knee-jerk reaction is to put em down first. Remember Occupy Wall Street？ How about the more recent BLM?

I remember Zuccotti being private property with rules explicitly forbidding people from camping there, and I remember a billion dollars worth of property damage. I also remember the yearly Women's March, March for Life, and March for Our Lives.

[Twelveseal]

So we got a couple new strains of Coronavirus running amok in the UK and South Africa, with higher infection rates on both. And supposedly the SA one hits younger people hard.

Oh, and Kilauea is erupting. Thanks, 2020. I hate it.

[asterism42]

Kilauea's always erupting

[AsGryffynn]

So, you're saying crimes against humanity are okay if the country is weak enough, different enough from what they used to be, or if the leadership is paranoid or idiotic. I am of the belief that crimes against humanity are bad and countries should try to avoid committing them.



That is simply untrue. Do you honestly believe every protest ever has been met with only force and failure?

No, I'm using the very logic you highlighted to show everyone what the US did and the main reason I stated those points in the first place:

Their atrocities shouldn't be likened to America's since America is chastizing them for doing the same shit they did. Maybe when the country criticizing them can claim to be devoid of sin, can they be criticized... but America or Europe criticizing someone for doing what they themselves did? No. You threw that right into a pit the moment you sold those horrors.

Switzerland can criticize China. South Africa can. Palestine can. The US? Nope.

[RoydGolden]

No, I'm using the very logic you highlighted to show everyone what the US did and the main reason I stated those points in the first place:

Their atrocities shouldn't be likened to America's since America is chastizing them for doing the same shit they did. Maybe when the country criticizing them can claim to be devoid of sin, can they be criticized... but America or Europe criticizing someone for doing what they themselves did? No. You threw that right into a pit the moment you sold those horrors.

Switzerland can criticize China. South Africa can. Palestine can. The US? Nope.

China sometimes criticizes the US while doing bad things too (like in this article). So I suppose by that logic since they're hypocritical to us they don't have the right to criticize when we're hypocritical to them too. Or maybe this whole framework is fatally flawed and it's perfectly valid to say "we admit we did something wrong, doesn't make it okay when you do it either". Not to mention "the US" isn't a monolith so particular individuals and leaders can call out human rights violations in China without approving of everything done in the name of their own country.

[Twelveseal]

No nation is a monolith. It's important to remember that regardless of political system or structure, there are always some who disagree with the policies of their leaders or representatives. Nor do the general population of most dominant nations have the power to simply ouster said leaders with force thanks to modern technology and weaponry, as well as that lack of monolithic agreement on such actions.

[RoydGolden]

No nation is a monolith. It's important to remember that regardless of political system or structure, there are always some who disagree with the policies of their leaders or representatives. Nor do the general population of most dominant nations have the power to simply ouster said leaders with force thanks to modern technology and weaponry, as well as that lack of monolithic agreement on such actions.

Nicely put. Even in the old days of the Crusades there were some people who thought it was all a bunch of crap after all (not even especially tolerant or pacifists, just ordinary folks who didn't have any interest in sacrificing tons of men and resources in a pointless war "reclaiming" someone else's land).

Also I edited my own previous post upon realizing I was inadvertently perpetuating the same standard by painting "China" as a monolith Americans can criticize. Usually using the names of particular countries to refer to their governments/officials is a reasonable shorthand, but it can lead to strange assumptions like that "a country" can never criticize "another country" if (anyone in that country's government?) ever did something similarly bad.

[LegalLoliLover]

Well, unless otherwise specified, "China" is just short for communist China or the CCP.

[rxrx]

Nicely put. Even in the old days of the Crusades there were some people who thought it was all a bunch of crap after all (not even especially tolerant or pacifists, just ordinary folks who didn't have any interest in sacrificing tons of men and resources in a pointless war "reclaiming" someone else's land).

Also I edited my own previous post upon realizing I was inadvertently perpetuating the same standard by painting "China" as a monolith Americans can criticize. Usually using the names of particular countries to refer to their governments/officials is a reasonable shorthand, but it can lead to strange assumptions like that "a country" can never criticize "another country" if (anyone in that country's government?) ever did something similarly bad.

If we use this logic, than it goes both sides.

[RoydGolden]

If we use this logic, than it goes both sides.

Of course. Chinese people are welcome to criticize the US for its evils, provided they don't do so in an attempt to excuse those in their own country. (Just like in America, responding to a legitimate criticism of the government with "but would you rather live in CHINA!?!" argument would be dumb and disingenuous).

[Twelveseal]

If this is legit, it's hilarious.

[rxrx]

So we got a couple new strains of Coronavirus running amok in the UK and South Africa, with higher infection rates on both. And supposedly the SA one hits younger people hard.

Oh, and Kilauea is erupting. Thanks, 2020. I hate it.

Almost all nations in the world have banned flights and arrivals from UK already.

[asterism42]

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/1...r-naughty-list

[Twelveseal]

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/1...r-naughty-list

I am not amused. Keep the $600. I'll take the internet, thanks.

[Deathhappens]

That's implying you have a choice. Yet the Digital Millennium Copyright Act passed anyway.