General News Thread

[Five_X]

The Bengal Famine in 1943 wasn't exactly handled particularly kindly, either.

[Nihilm]

Joining nazi army was different. Most of the baltics were conscripted. Dont know about you but there were 10% volunteers here according to research and that was mostly thanks to 1940 deportations not political leanings.

I don't have a percentage, but I just know over 40000 men were mobilized into a seperate german regiment to fight against the red army and the regiment had the name "volunteers" in it. It was definitely a mix of volunteering and forced conscription though.

[Seika]

Like any colonial nation (perhaps any nation beyond a few of the micro-states, in truth and fairness) we could set out a mass litany of atrocities. I just mean to highlight points at which we really ought to be more self-reflective when it comes to the ingrained notion that we were and are the complete opposite of the Nazis.

[Five_X]

It's kinda sad how every so often there'll be a story in the tabloids about how we found an EVIL NAZI living amongst INNOCENT BRITONS and the whole song and dance goes on again with some 90+ year old man getting arrested so that some people far too young to remember the war get to feel good about themselves.

[2Bad]

Please don't make damning generalisations about the whole region when you have Poland and Ukraine in mind. Obviously there are assholes everywhere. Probably more in eeurope, but you'll have to come here to get the real picture.

I'm not saying the Baltics are literally drowning in crypto-fascism. I'm saying that you share, regionally, an issue that all your neighbors also have because you have that shared history. It's a statement of fact, not a condemnation of you specifically.

As Seika said, we've all got our atrocity cards, but, with regards to the original topic, a common issue in Holocaust historiography in particular is the various populations being able to claim victim status themselves. The Holocaust was at its worst in Poland so the issue is most prevalent there, but part of the reason Snyder's Bloodlands was such a best seller in (if you demand a local example) Latvia is it afforded conservative scholars a big boost to the "we were the war's real victims" argument.

Bringing this back around: East Europe has had a bad fucking time, to state the blatantly obvious, which makes it the most fertile ground for the kind of narratives that allow Poland to present itself as a nation of victims (white, Catholic ones) defending themselves from the outside world (which is inherently and unjustly hostile to them). That, mac, is why that national identity getting any kind of boost makes people so wary.

- - - Updated - - -

Bloodlands is actually a pretty fascinating book, by the by.

[Marmadillo]

I'm not saying the Baltics are literally drowning in crypto-fascism. I'm saying that you share, regionally, an issue that all your neighbors also have because you have that shared history. It's a statement of fact, not a condemnation of you specifically.

The only issue we share that is different from most of the rest of europe is that we got fucked up by comunists as well not just by nazis and over a larger period of time so holocaust isnt the only thing to obsess over. So if Badlands is the thing youre going by, my previous comment stands - dont generalize.
It was popular here mostly because of "oh look westerners wrote a book about us" anyway.

[2Bad]

The only issue we share that is different from most of the rest of europe is that we got fucked up by comunists as well not just by nazis and over a larger period of time

Except we were talking about Eastern Europe, with which you absolutely share that.

so holocaust isnt the only thing to obsess over.

Yes this is kind of the exact thing I was just saying feeds the aforementioned position.

So if Badlands is the thing youre going by

No, it was an example. The entire field of Holocaust historiography is built out of this exact thing you are doing right now so it's kind of weird that you're digging your heels in. Is it that controversial to you that I offhandedly mentioned you in a list?

[Snow]

Hot heavy opinions but IMO assigning victim status to a nation is just as if not more dangerous than assigning badguy status to a nation.

[2Bad]

Yes!

[Snow]

Why I never really caught on to DS9 actually.

I know it probably turns the whole thing around later but I just couldn't bear the journey that gets you there.

[Marmadillo]

No, it was an example. The entire field of Holocaust historiography is built out of this exact thing you are doing right now so it's kind of weird that you're digging your heels in. Is it that controversial to you that I offhandedly mentioned you in a list?

The comment that I replied about mentioned Poland and Baltics only not eeurope. Ill make this clearer - what Im offended about is you reducing a complex issue of historical memory to a generalized observation (more a judgement than a statement of fact actually) backed by weasel words.
The rhetorics about holocaust here will obviously be different (and different in Estonia than us for example since not many jews lived there) so you should kind of guess how your offhanded mention might not sit well with me.

[2Bad]

What region of Europe are those countries generally counted as oh I wonder.

It is a generalized observation because the original comment was not intended to comment on the Baltics beyond being a general example. You can keep denying the existence of Denial as a thing I guess but it was entirely tangential to the original point of commentary which was focused on Poland.

- - - Updated - - -

Next time I try to comment on East European historiographical issues I will be sure to provide a complete Latvian section with all of its own sources if that'll make you feel better.

[2Bad]

For real though, I never thought we'd be having a dispute over "collaborator denial is a problem in EE" but here we are. Maybe I'll start pretending that there aren't people in the US arguing that the South was in the right.

[Marmadillo]

but it was entirely tangential to the original point of commentary which was focused on Poland.

One might think I would be less upset if I didn't know that.
Youre certainly right about the idea of a victim nation being an issue. It definitely annoys me, not because it makes Denial with capitals a thing (as I said in the oughts it turned much less of an issue), but because it traps most of the people in the country in history as a focus point for national identity. I dont want sources, I want less feeding into the russian narrative about our interpretation of ww2 and less fuel for nationalists to use for their euroskepticism.

[2Bad]

One might think I would be less upset if I didn't know that.
Youre certainly right about the idea of a victim nation being an issue. It definitely annoys me, not because it makes Denial with capitals a thing (as I said in the oughts it turned much less of an issue), but because it traps most of the people in the country in history as a focus point for national identity. I dont want sources, I want less feeding into the russian narrative about our interpretation of ww2 and less fuel for nationalists to use for their euroskepticism.

If you want to not fuel nationalists, maybe don't parrot them by pretending that certain issues don't exist.

- - - Updated - - -

One might go so far to say that your inability to not interject on a closed topic had nationalistic motivations.

[SeiKeo]

dude, chill, you're starting to be an asshole now

[2Bad]

Fine

[Marmadillo]

One might go so far to say that your inability to not interject on a closed topic had nationalistic motivations.

I definitely cant stop you from reading my words as you want to.

[Elthanes]

Ok this election is killing me

[Strife ❤️]

Actual nice.