General News Thread

[Twelveseal]

Basically, they just fired all of their officers, rehired a bunch after a more rigorous selection process, and then brought in old community policing practices that used to be commonplace instead of the current tough-on-crime shit that doesn't actually work.

[RacingeR]

Abolishing the police would be like getting rid of a symptom but doing nothing about the illness.

[SpoonyViking]

@Spoony: So what's your suggestion as a model that would fit the US's needs?

Mandatory History, Sociology and Philosophy classes from middle school up, for starters. :-P

See, it's a glib answer, but it kind of has to be because this stuff needs to be a long-term plan. In the short term... Hell, Twelve, you guys have the same problem we have here: you have a law enforcement agency which is trained and encouraged to act at all times like it's a military unit in hostile territory and has basically zero accountability. My bare minimum proposal would be the firing of all police officers who employed rubber bullets and tear gas against civilians, sending all the ones who ordered the use of said equipment directly to jail ("do not pass go, do not collect $200") cutting the budget of all police departments to something around one-third its current amount, and taking the cost of all lawsuits for excessive force directly out of their pensions, retroactively. And I reiterate, that's the bare minimum.

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Abolishing the police would be like getting rid of a symptom but doing nothing about the illness.

While true, it's worth pointing out this is a very serious symptom and should be treated as such, not as something to be dealt with later.

[Kabalisto Koga]

My opinion is that the us police is more drilled in military garbage like that they encourage violent tendencies and that the in use are having a problem with their relation to weapons as that they allow even private persons to have one which make them at the start already biased and that even parents are teaching their children in using them ,

which is one reason why i find them just sick and insane as parents are having the duty to teach them disgust for weapons on so that they are sensitised at first and then should the education of the police be more like the European one were diplomacy /mediation and correct criminalistic methodics are teached .

[Twelveseal]

Mandatory History, Sociology and Philosophy classes from middle school up, for starters. :-P

See, it's a glib answer, but it kind of has to be because this stuff needs to be a long-term plan.

Let's see... that's going to require an extended school day or a JP-style 6-day school week, to start.

Then there's a need for more teachers in the relevant fields. Teaching is already a massively underpaid career here. One that famously accrues large amounts of student debt and incentivises education in STEM fields, not the Humanities, and whose debt is notoriously difficult to have forgiven. This, while competing with the already strained budgets of most schools due to Public Education normally being funded by property taxes, resulting in tremendous disparities in resources between schools of the same size depending on the wealth of the specific population they serve. The only places likely to see this will be the middle and upper class neighborhoods, who are unlikely to enter law enforcement and would not be in touch with the community they police if they did, perpetuating the problem.

Likewise, this does not prevent corruption or abuse. Many a tyrant and dictator has been well educated. Unless you're planning on indoctrination as a method of crime prevention, this is not a sure fix and likely won't make it past the Conservatives precisely because they will be able to sell it as liberal indoctrination, even when it isn't.

This is not to say the idea lacks merit. I just feel like it needs a lot of other reforms to happen first before it will have a noticeable impact.

In the short term... Hell, Twelve, you guys have the same problem we have here: you have a law enforcement agency which is trained and encouraged to act at all times like it's a military unit in hostile territory and has basically zero accountability. My bare minimum proposal would be the firing of all police officers who employed rubber bullets and tear gas against civilians, sending all the ones who ordered the use of said equipment directly to jail ("do not pass go, do not collect $200")

Yeah, that's not going to happen, and you know it. Even should we change the use of force laws, those changes won't be retroactive. Nevermind that the President himself seems to be one of the people ordering such things. Even attempting that sort of change on a national level would require overturning the way the Senate operates or having the Supreme Court overwhelmingly swayed to the Left in order to legislate or interpret the extant law to produce such a result. Local jurisdictions might do so, and have, but most likely won't take that step.

Further, assuming we jail all of these corrupt and abusive officers, across the huge number of agencies we have... who exactly is actually going to police them in jail? There's not a lot of incentive to do that, especially with some of your other suggestions added in. Not to mention a lot of prison guards aren't police at all; they're private security contractors. That model encourages further privatization of prisons, especially if you're defunding the police.

cutting the budget of all police departments to something around one-third its current amount,

Potentially doable. Defunding the police is popular right now for a reason. Just don't expect it in Conservative bastions like the Midwest. Minneapolis is trying it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's overridden at the state level in part or full, or knocked down in the courts.

and taking the cost of all lawsuits for excessive force directly out of their pensions, retroactively. And I reiterate, that's the bare minimum.

That's another thing that likely won't happen, and honestly, probably shouldn't, since I feel like it's likely insufficient to cover the costs, but would be the only compensation the victims or survivors would get. Especially if applied retroactively.

[asterism42]

FWIW police forces in the US basically use extortion on politicians who try to cut their budgets.

[SpoonyViking]

What was it that Ursula K. Leguin said? “We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings.”

[Altima of the Gates]

FWIW police forces in the US basically use extortion on politicians who try to cut their budgets.

It's a deep web, and it needs strong thorough reform to get the rot out, that can be said with a lot of policies in the US.
The worse thing to do however, is to talk ourselves out of doing anything because there is so much work to be done, or allow weak policy that allows bad actors to make it ineffective.
Because if we continue to have no results, people will end up becoming more extremist, and nuanced l, balanced conversation will become less and less effective on the public due to frustrations building over time.

[Mcjon01]

Let's see... that's going to require an extended school day or a JP-style 6-day school week, to start.

Then there's a need for more teachers in the relevant fields. Teaching is already a massively underpaid career here. One that famously accrues large amounts of student debt and incentivises education in STEM fields, not the Humanities, and whose debt is notoriously difficult to have forgiven. This, while competing with the already strained budgets of most schools due to Public Education normally being funded by property taxes, resulting in tremendous disparities in resources between schools of the same size depending on the wealth of the specific population they serve. The only places likely to see this will be the middle and upper class neighborhoods, who are unlikely to enter law enforcement and would not be in touch with the community they police if they did, perpetuating the problem.

Man I wonder how much teachers would make if someone slashed those bloated police budgets and redirected the funds into education.

[Kamera]

but schools and prisons are literally the same!!1

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Also, abolishing the police: Isn't that just admitting to wanting anarchy?

that's the goal, yeah

[AsGryffynn]

My opinion is that the us police is more drilled in military garbage like that they encourage violent tendencies and that the in use are having a problem with their relation to weapons as that they allow even private persons to have one which make them at the start already biased and that even parents are teaching their children in using them ,

which is one reason why i find them just sick and insane as parents are having the duty to teach them disgust for weapons on so that they are sensitised at first and then should the education of the police be more like the European one were diplomacy /mediation and correct criminalistic methodics are teached .

To be honest it isn't even weapons that are the issue. You need robots and people in charge who aren't dickheads. The issue with officers like Derek Chauvin is that they pretty much use unnecessary force "discretionarily". That's the crap that needs to stop. No more "discretionary moves" unless you're on the other end of a light rifle.

Spoony's solution sounds more like preparation for October Revolution II: even when people died, they kept on being used because there's no other way to restrict an unruly crowd and Maidan style violence isn't the sort of shit you'd like to see. I mean, we might as well jail Roof Koreans now.

What was it that Ursula K. Leguin said? “We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings.”

Yet the few times actual socialism ever seemed to work, people stamped it out.

I think people don't want it or want the Stalin flavor even though they both suck. I swear Rosa Luxembourg is rolling over in her grave, next to Buenaventura Durruti and yes, Jo Goulart.

[Twelveseal]

Honestly, I'd be rather amazed if a surplus from defunding the police didn't end up lining politicians' pockets rather than making it back to schools and teachers. I mean, we're right in the middle of a pro-voucher push, coupled with school defunding thanks to the pandemic.

As for the Divine Right of Kings and its comparison to capitalism; that took a revolution that is increasingly unlikely the more advanced the 1st World becomes. It would require a social and technological collapse first, neither of which seems forthcoming despite the pandemic. Even assuming we see such a collapse, due to the tendencies of the population, the most likely result would be a Fascist military dictatorship, likely with white-ethnonationalist and theocratic flavor, not a Socialist or Communist regime. Both of the latter have been hard sells throughout US history, and when seen abroad have often produced dramatically negative results. The modern Nordic model being an increasingly popular exception among the Left here.

Americans in general don't trust our government to do much but maybe help us in a crisis, pass a few priorities of the party in power when there is one, and fuck up the rest of the time. Why should we expect it to be able to effectively and fairly manage the diverse wants and needs of the whole population?

[rxrx]

Personally, I think everyone having a gun in USA makes the cops there choose to just shoot instead. Unless you do something about this, it is almost impossible to improve policing.

[Twelveseal]

There are more guns in this country than people, despite the fact that not everyone owns one. Most of the people that do, do so because they don't trust the government or the police to be willing or able to protect them in an emergency.

A great many of these people view the government itself as an enemy hell-bent on trampling their rights, beliefs, and privileges, and own explicitly so that they can at least attempt to fight the same. These people are almost universally Right-Wing.

Good luck getting them to give up their guns.

[SpoonyViking]

Twelve, none of the changes throughout history were easy, and yet they still happened. Not because of some overwhelming current, but because people fought for them. It's difficult, it's painful, and people will have to continually struggle to not let things regress, but it *can* be done.
As long as you guys don't talk yourselves out of it, of course.

A great many of these people view the government itself as an enemy hell-bent on trampling their rights, beliefs, and privileges, and own explicitly so that they can at least attempt to fight the same. These people are almost universally Right-Wing.

They're perfectly fine with the government trampling the rights and beliefs of others, of course.
There's no bootlicker more despicable than the bootlicker who thinks he's actually worth something.

[Mattias]

that's the goal, yeah

I have never met an anarchist who would actually manage to survive anarchy and not end up either someone's bitch or strapped to the hood of a car. You know who thrives in anarchy? Gym bro's and hermits with more guns than brain cells.

[Kamera]

what is anarchy to you?

[Rafflesiac]

what is anarchy to you?

RIOT

RIOT

RIOT

RIOT

[Twelveseal]

Twelve, none of the changes throughout history, and yet they still happened. Not because of some overwhelming current, but because people fought for them. It's difficult, it's painful, and people will have to continually struggle to not let things regress, but it *can* be done.
As long as you guys don't talk yourselves out of it, of course.

It's less a matter of talking us out of it and more a matter of talking the majority of the country into it.

They're perfectly fine with the government trampling the rights and beliefs of others, of course.
There's no bootlicker more despicable than the bootlicker who thinks he's actually worth something.

Of course! It works for them. Why should they give a damn about the rights and needs of people who just as likely view them as obstacle on the path to prosperity. They view themselves as right and superior to their counterparts. Why should they do something that, to them, is an act of betrayal to their own people and values?

Not to mention they do have value. Not only are they valuable to the politicians and elites that they keep in power, not only are they the people who need to be won over to enact policies through the Senate... they also tend to be the laborers and farmers who are absolutely necessary in a traditional Communist revolution.

[SpoonyViking]

Honestly, they're perfectly fine with the government trampling their own rights and beliefs, too. They're just dumb enough to not recognise when that's being done.