General News Thread

[Trubo]

The people that here the words socialist and immediately pull the other lever.

Thank Cold War propaganda for that, and even that can be mitigated if media actually reported it properly.

The people that don’t believe Medicare for all is the answer.

Which is consistently a minor portion of the population.

The people he will be having to talk very fast on to convince the public option he will be implementing isn’t a government takeover of healthcare.

Again, if the media wasn't so invested in undermining this message, people wouldn't have these worries. Even then, just point to the Culinary Union in Nevada as an example of how working class people understand that working to give current Medicare for everyone is more popular than sticking to their current plans, especially since Medicare is consistently rated the best healthcare plan in the US.

The people that emphatically do not want a big structural change, and instead simply dream of a world where things get a little better each day.

Platitudes used to justify the status quo for the last 4 decades that have ruined the country. Incrementalism can't work anymore since our productive capabilities have been sold overseas. Nothing short of a WW2-like boost of infrastructure improvements will fix the main issues. Hell, Flint still has shitty water, even after Obama bold faced lied about how good their water was on TV.

thats who will decide the 2020 election. I know that’s not what the world feels like from twitter or whatever, but that was the message that won in ‘18z that was what beat trump the last time.

People voted against Republicans because Trump failed to deliver on trade related issues. Dunno why you're trying to spin it any other way.

people on the left repeatedly point to 16 as a time when the moderate middle of the road lost, and that’s true, but they ignore, it seems willfully, that the one time Trump was explicitly beaten was also from the middle, we can build something together crowd. That’s what took back the heartland. And as was correctly pointed out earlier in this thread, it doesn’t matter if a few million more people on the coast and in California vote for team D if 200,000 people in the heartland stay home.

Again, Trump promised trade improvements and never delivered when he had the same situation that Obama and the Democrats did in 2008. People voted in response to that.

you are welcome to craft whatever message you like, but if it’s not one 40 somethings in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan agree with, and by the way, that’s not M4A, you aren’t going to get elected.

Again, media should do its job and actually go into detail about Biden's expansion of ACA. For all the criticisms leveled at Bernie for M4A, Biden's gotten a free pass for an even more expensive and less comprehensive plan.

side note BTW I am actually for M4A but I’m a hospital social worker, of course I am. But I’m also socially aware enough to realize that just because I want something doesn’t mean the right people in the right place want it, and therefor I know for an absolute certainty that the only way it or something like it is going to pass is if the public option is passed, and it becomes so wildly popular that it ends up the de facto only insurance. That’s it. That’s the only way we will see it in our lifetime. So I support the candidate I think is going to get us there. Joe Biden.

Biden literally said he'd veto M4A in the hypothetical case of it passing the House and Senate, justifying it with the "how are we going to pay for it" knee jerk response. See how well that response will hold up now after the 4.25 trillion direct stimulus+loan package given to corporations and however many trillions got dumped into the stock market; as has been said, M4A as an idea doesn't exist because politicians aren't interested in choosing to implement, they can find the money if they really wanted to do so.

EDIT: and on the head to head polls, sure would help if 10% of the DNC would stop trying to delude themselves into thinking Biden is going to somehow disqualify himself so that they get Bernie for the nominee.

don’t tell me that doesn’t keep happening either.

He drops in the polls because he routinely embarrasses himself in his interviews, and then Trump comes around giving Biden a silver platter to use against Trump that Biden drops, over and over and over.

biden is senile, watch in the debate, Bernie is going to destroy him and he is going to wander off thinking it’s 2001!

Biden's debate performance was better than his previous ones, but it was still a bad debate performance as a whole. He started falling apart in the second half of it, routinely lied throughout the entire debate, and answered practically nothing of merit.

Biden is in hiding, he caught the Coronavirus, he is dying, #wheresjoe!!!

Biden's staff can't even do a proper studio in his basement, and they had to cut to a logo of him in one of his earlier livestreams because of his tendency to wander around. He's also not doing interviews of any significant length because he can't even hold up well under 7 minutes by the friendliest interviewer he can possibly have.

Biden raped a staffer in ‘98, can’t be the nominee #metoo #bernie2020.

Yeah, because if people have to vote for a potential rapist, they may as well vote for the potential rapist that's least terrible.

thats why Biden’s numbers fluctuate, because some people enter the denial stage of grief for a while, convince themselves that it’s not going to come down to trump and Biden, and then eventually sanity returns and the cows come home.

We'll see if this holds up in the coming weeks, because Biden's spikes back up have been falling in potency on a monthly basis.

[Mcjon01]

Neolibs hoodwink midwestern swing voters into believing incrementalism is slowly making things better instead of making things bad but not as fast with one weird trick. Progressives hate them!

[Altima of the Gates]

Bears saying, but Republicans vote for what they want without any regard for how batshit insane it comes off to other people. Democrats calculate and vote based on what they think the mythical Midwestern voter at a diner wants. The result? Republicans have been beating Democrats nationally at a 2 to 1 clip since Reagan with the added bonus of massively right shifting the Overton Window along the way.

Now, this, this is actually true. The GOP, the constituents and their representatives, kick and scream until they get something passed, whatever platitudes they need to fake, dirt, or backdoordealing they need to do to pull it off (mostly because of McConnell of course, but what have you). And we get things like these bloated behemoth payouts to corporations. Plus literally trying their damndest to outlaw abortions and trying ever more to smack people over the head with the Bible and get away with it in what is supposed to be a secular nation when it comes to federal mandate.
Toby is right that it will be tough to sell people wholesale with M4A from the jump, moving towards nationalized healthcare only works if its foundation is solidly supported, so there is merit to saying that letting people first see how good it is, and choiising it over private insurance, thereby choking the life out of it, until it croaks is the likeliest answer. The problem of course is, it's slow, far too slow, with what is needed NOW.
So I ultimately do want the Dems to pull up their britches and just steamroll the GOP, stop the idea of false unity and bring out the metaphoric baseball bat.

[Trubo]

I mean, M4A could have been a moot issue in Obama's first term. They didn't need bipartisan support to push through a better healthcare system, but still tried to get it from the side that's been openly hostile to them since at least Clinton. The necessary amount of time to make people have to deal with the public option could have been accomplished with those first four years, but nope.

[Mcjon01]

They didn’t need bipartisan support but they did need the support of conservative Democrats, which meant even a public option was pretty much dead in the water, let alone m4a.

[forumghost]

I mean, M4A could have been a moot issue in Obama's first term. They didn't need bipartisan support to push through a better healthcare system, but still tried to get it from the side that's been openly hostile to them since at least Clinton. The necessary amount of time to make people have to deal with the public option could have been accomplished with those first four years, but nope.

From what I've seen this is the Dem's problem in a nutshell over in the US- they're trying to play nice with the right, even though the right has proven time and again that they don't want to, and keep moving further right and becoming less co-operative with every election.

[Twelveseal]

You make it sound like there was a stomach for it among the majority of the party or it's leadership at the time.

And yes, that's exactly what happens.

[Pendant]

From what I've seen this is the Dem's problem in a nutshell over in the US- they're trying to play nice with the right, even though the right has proven time and again that they don't want to, and keep moving further right and becoming less co-operative with every election.

I used to think this was the main design flaw of the modern Democratic party. Now I believe this is the party's ultimate goal.

Basically, I was a sucker.

[Tobias]

yeah I remember the big ass fights in 2008. it wasnt really about negotiating with the republicans (though they did try) but more about getting their own members on board. Believe me, obama got as liberal a proposal as he could passed. the blue dogs were all about to defect en masse as it was.

[Pendant]

yeah I remember the big ass fights in 2008. it wasnt really about negotiating with the republicans (though they did try) but more about getting their own members on board. Believe me, obama got as liberal a proposal as he could passed. the blue dogs were all about to defect en masse as it was.

Which is why you go to their districts and hold rallies/support primary challengers if they don't fall in line. Obama won in '08 by massive margins and was more popular than virtually every congressman even within their own districts.

[Twelveseal]

The problem there is that you have to convince enough people to actually vote for those challengers. Which remains a consistent problem. People, especially the young people who are prone to actually get out and protest, are also not prone to getting out to vote for said challengers when it comes down to it.

[Pendant]

The problem there is that you have to convince enough people to actually vote for those challengers. Which remains a consistent problem. People, especially the young people who are prone to actually get out and protest, are also not prone to getting out to vote for said challengers when it comes down to it.

A popular president would go a long way in doing said convincing, don't you think?

[Tobias]

Again it took everything Obama and pelosi had getting Obamacare. Hell when that one senator died and the dems lost their super majority, it really seemed like even Obamacare wouldn’t get passed and they were just going to try to increase some child health credits before they worked up that little bit of governmental jutitsu that let them pass it with reconciliation.

I remember ole boehner screaming at the floor of the house.

[Twelveseal]

A popular president would go a long way in doing said convincing, don't you think?

What makes you think we have anyone that's actually popular enough to do so in the running? Bernie turns off the older folks for one reason or another. At that point, you'd essentially be better off starting a new party and tailoring it to the young voters, then forcing the Dems to negotiate with that body.

Similar to Macron, in a way.

[Pendant]

Again it took everything Obama and pelosi had getting Obamacare. Hell when that one senator died and the dems lost their super majority, it really seemed like even Obamacare wouldn’t get passed and they were just going to try to increase some child health credits before they worked up that little bit of governmental jutitsu that let them pass it with reconciliation.

I remember ole boehner screaming at the floor of the house.

So let him scream? That's literally his job; he's in opposition. What do you expect him to say? Democrats' constant obsession with what Republicans will say about them never ceases to amaze.

[Twelveseal]

So let him scream? That's literally his job; he's in opposition. What do you expect him to say? Democrats' constant obsession with what Republicans will say about them never ceases to amaze.

For whatever reason, the moderates still think they have a shot at peeling off Republican voters, or that there's enough swing voters out there to matter... Oh, except where they do, ofc, in those Midwest districts that wound up determining the electoral college last time.

Thinking about it like that, though, just makes it seem like there's no hope for any Dem, Sanders, Biden, or otherwise, since those folks seem pretty hard for Trump these days.

[Pendant]

What makes you think we have anyone that's actually popular enough to do so in the running? Bernie turns off the older folks for one reason or another. At that point, you'd essentially be better off starting a new party and tailoring it to the young voters, then forcing the Dems to negotiate with that body.

Similar to Macron, in a way.

This was in reference to Obama (a very popular president) during the health care fight. Also, presidents hold such incredible sway that it almost doesn't matter. Unless you're Bush in his 2nd term sitting at about 20% approval you can almost always get your party to follow.

[Twelveseal]

Despite him very nearly not being able to pass Obamacare? And this because of its unpopularity within his own party, not because of the Reps. You're saying that if he'd pushed M4A, everyone would have just fallen in line?

[Pendant]

Despite him very nearly not being able to pass Obamacare? And this because of its unpopularity within his own party, not because of the Reps. You're saying that if he'd pushed M4A, everyone would have just fallen in line?

If he had viably threatened their careers quite possibly, yes. Politicians are highly dedicated to carrying water for corporations. The only thing that has even more resonance with them is their existential need to get re-elected. If you force them into having to decide one way or the other, I suspect some will still choose to fall on their sword on behalf of their donors but you will manage to bend some in your direction.

[Mcjon01]

Despite him very nearly not being able to pass Obamacare? And this because of its unpopularity within his own party, not because of the Reps. You're saying that if he'd pushed M4A, everyone would have just fallen in line?

I dunno, Trump has proven that you can get people to fall in line and vote for whatever shit sandwich you platter up for them by threatening to use your personal popularity to make their voters turn on them, so the ol’ “compromise until everyone is least unhappy” method seems a little quaint nowadays