General News Thread

[I3uster]

Currently the plan to peel off left wing voters seems to be not by doing concessions on policy but by giving Biden a more left wing profile than his voting record would show. Mostly by doing uh, stories I guess (the thing about his dad being okay with gay people and how he got arrested in south africa, both hard to call "truth" by any measure).

Seems like his handlers have no idea that this does not bear fruit vs a left wing that only moves when they see actual material change and not just aesthetics.

[Twelveseal]

Pics or it didn't happen.

[I3uster]

The south africa story is just straight up fake as confirmed by authorities there but its fine if your candidate does the outlandish lying cuz hes the good one.

[asterism42]

Why do people on the Biden camp recommend voting or at least do wishx washy statements when the Bernie team tells people to stay home and its Bernies fault when people die, this doesnt really check out.

Yeah, in terms of excuses it's very much the equivalent of 'It's your fault for making me hit you'.

[Tobias]

Why does the Bernie camp act like staying in the race and thus continuing a process that will result in people dying is some sort of moral stand, this doesn’t really check out

[Pendant]

Why does the Bernie camp act like staying in the race and thus continuing a process that will result in people dying is some sort of moral stand, this doesn’t really check out

Do you believe that health care should be tied to one's job?

[Tobias]

No, why?

[Pendant]

Are you aware that your candidate for president does?

[Trubo]

Why does the Bernie camp act like staying in the race and thus continuing a process that will result in people dying is some sort of moral stand, this doesn’t really check out

Because, as we covered already, the reason that Wisconsin and other states aren't delaying their primary is because the other elections that are going on anyway. No primary wouldn't change anything on that front, and, if we take your claims at full value, Republicans would still be forcing all votes to go on. In other words, Bernie's presence in the race has no bearing on anyone that contracts coronavirus.

But I'll guess you'll pivot to something of the effect of "people are less likely to vote if no primary going on" to blame Bernie for any potential deaths rather than hold the system as a whole responsible for letting this dumb scapegoat argument to be a thing in the first place.

Edit: Also, governor could still do an executive order and for the legislature to be on record of saying that they'd rather people potentially die voting than delay, not cancel, elections, but he hasn't yet because of political fallout.

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Are you aware that your candidate for president does?

But you see Pendant, Biden will try to push in a change for ACA to relax that restriction, despite none of Biden's actions supporting this at all. Also, itd be easier for Biden to push for this change, despite that he's on record to voting down any proposal that manages to accomplish this if it somehow gets through Congress, because "where will the money come from?".

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The south africa story is just straight up fake as confirmed by authorities there but its fine if your candidate does the outlandish lying cuz hes the good one.

Not to mention that Biden and his supporters are all for calling out alleged rapists for their actions until it's him facing this scrutiny, at which point they'll parrot the same victim blaming, shaming, and "why now?" attacks they criticized others for doing.

[Kamera]

https://www.businessinsider.com/coro...ericans-2020-4

there's more chance drupft will implement better healthcare than biden lol

[Tobias]

Are you aware that your candidate for president does?

Yes I am. I am also aware that Biden is more likely then Bernie Sanders to actually bring about M4A. And I say that being fully aware that Biden said he would veto such a measure. However a public option, properly instituted will starve out other insurance companies and will bring about the system change in a gradual way Americans can accept.

bernie however neither has the plan to achieve M4A nor the willingness to ram it down unilaterally, as he himself has repeatedly verbalized on multiple occasions. Therefor, as a proponent of such who believes in checking people’s actions, I support Biden.

if sanders becomes president there will be no actual change for universal coverage. If Biden becomes president, there will.

[Pendant]

I mean, maybe? Sounds like you're getting into prognostication about what may happen when it's completely up in the air. And it strikes me as magical thinking that by opposing M4A that you end up with M4A. Sounds like a contradiction to me, but I guess this is that three dimensional chess I've heard so much about.

[Tobias]

A: pass Public option, which Biden has repeatedly verbalized intent to do
B: public option not being for profit means higher number of dollars spent on medical care instead of overhead, optimally 85% or higher
C: people sign up in greater numbers which grants PO stronger ability to dictate rates
D: more people sign up for PO as it is now both more efficient and effective then comparable plans
E: PO now acts as only real coverage aside from a couple of flavor, smaller private supplemental plans, and operates as universal or near universal coverage.

that is a set of steps that takes a while, but legitimately and realistically gets us there

that is what I see in Biden.

here is bernie’s plan as I understand it and has verbalized is his intent and repeatedly refused to acknowledge the need for any alternative strategy.

A: Pass M4A, but rule out changing the filibusters
B: 9, count em 9 republican senators vote for the bill.
C: YAAAAY!

while bernie’s plan has fewer steps and a shorter start up time, the idea that he is going to get 9 senators of the RNC to support single payer is just straight up wrong. It’s not gonna happen. Not in this senatorial climate.

so when I see these two plans, I choose to support the one that’s more difficult, more time consuming, but ultimately feasible vs the one that appears to require magic or the phantom thieves changing 9 hearts in order to bring to fruition.

EDIT: Sweet holy hell my phones spell check is retarded lately

[Pendant]

I take it you haven't heard the criticisms of a public option before have you? Mainly that it will act as a subsidized pool which insurers will push older, sicker, and more costly people onto thereby overburdening the system whilst keeping the healthy on their private plans. This is duplicative care and once the public model fails because it is being tasked with treating the most dire cases, for-profit enthusiasts will be able to point to its failure and say, "see, I told you government was wasteful and inefficient;" likely setting single payer back by decades.

[Tobias]

I have heard the criticisms but never found them to be that swaying. People will all seek the best plan available, and the limitation of private plans is the push to grab as much as they can for “overhead” which if a nice way to say executive salaries and dividend checks.

A simple public plan that is ran by people who receive a flat rate for their service and isn’t related to the plans profitability but instead tied to efficiently will be far stronger then any sabotage by the private plan companies.

[Pendant]

You're placing far too much faith in people to actually and know what the hell they are doing vis-a-vis selecting health insurance. Despite what Buttigieg says the vast majority of Americans don't understand health insurance and giving them a choice isn't actually desirable. More than likely what will happen is that private insurers, now pressured by a public compeitor, will seek out their healthy customers and offer them sweetheart deals, with low rates and fairly expansive coverage. It's not such a bad deal for them because this is the type of person who doesn't end up availing themself of health care all that much to begin with so it is still profitable to cover them. This person will now probably go "ah, fuck it, I guess I'll stick with them after all since it's not so bad now and I won't have to deal with the hassle of switching over to the public plan".

The only people will switch are sick who will be forced to as they are met with extortive rates or those who are committed to a public health care vision, sadly a very small minority.

[Tobias]

I place more faith in Americans clicking the first box on a revamped Obamacare website that lists the PO in bright shiny letters as the cheapest plan then I do McConnell and 8 other republican senators voting for M4A.

[asterism42]

Not to mention that Biden and his supporters are all for calling out alleged rapists for their actions until it's him facing this scrutiny, at which point they'll parrot the same victim blaming, shaming, and "why now?" attacks they criticized others for doing.

I have Heard (not verified yet) of Biden's supporters deleting their defences of the woman who accused Kavanaugh three years ago. Because whoops now that spotlight's aimed at Us.

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I mean, maybe? Sounds like you're getting into prognostication about what may happen when it's completely up in the air.

In the matter of this I have elected to turn to actual prognostication and consulted the Tarot, which told me Oppression, Delay, and Ignorance.

uncanny

[Tobias]

That reminds me. I think a year or two from now if I am preparing a DSW dissertation using the 5 stages of grief as evidenced by the sanders candidacy could make for a good paper. I’m actually kind of tempted to do a research study now and see about the feasibility. I think I could get published

phase one, denial: sanders could still win the primary! Narrow path, only needs 60% of the remaining vote despite it being in states he is losing by twenty point margins!
phase two, anger: rigged by the DNC! Corporations decide, fraudulent voter rallies!
phase three, bargaining: maybe Bernie is going to lose by votes, but he should still stay in! Biden is going to disqualify himself, he is to senile, he is to old, he sucks, he is a rapist, check out this unverified account from a sanders supporter and if you don’t believe her unequivocally then you support rape!
phase four, depression: everything is ruined for ever, enjoy 4 more years of trump : (
phase five, acceptance: fine, I’ll vote blue in the state races. Maybe I’ll write in sanders or something, whatever, maybe Biden, I dunno*

*seen a few times but not expecting it to become more prevalent until august, as people tend to consciously force themselves away from stage five as they feel they betray their own beliefs and hopes by accepting the loss before the patient is taken off life support, which in this extended metaphor is Bernie announcing his support for Biden at the convention.

[I3uster]

I have Heard (not verified yet) of Biden's supporters deleting their defences of the woman who accused Kavanaugh three years ago. Because whoops now that spotlight's aimed at Us.

Also past posts in support of #metoo got deleted.

This is why I kind of seriously doubt Tobias characterization of his camp as this sincere emotional growth in regards to Biden's progressivism. The optics so far all point towards opportunism and it seems the only counterargument is "I believe that is not the case" which as far as defense goes doesn't really do a whole lot.