Ancient Literature Discussion (History, Myth, Philosophy &c.)

[LegalLoliLover]

I notice that while banshees and Dullahans were considered fairies in original Irish legend, modern stories portray them as crying undead, basically La Llorona, and headless undead, respectively. Ghost or zombie depends on the individual story. Meanwhile, oftentimes, modern Japanese portrayal of vampires and werewolves appear more like bat and wolf youkai.

[LegalLoliLover]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKBN24416R I already mentioned this before, but as you know, when I see something, like this, I tend to shamelessly double down on those who want others to "do better". If the Little Mermaid is a "race traitor" for falling in love with a human, what does that make Sun Wukong, who not only took a human master (yes, I know that there is a difference between a religious master and a slave master) but proceeds to beat and kill his former youkai "bruthas" (at the very least, Wukong made an oath of brotherhood with the Bull Demon King and possibly a couple others) in the name of said master?

[LegalLoliLover]

Oh, another reason why many Chinese consider the Mongols to be their ancestors is because unlike the sporadic war crime rapes by the Japanese, Soviets, etc. the Mongols essentially had their own version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur The example most familiar to Fate fans is what Gilgamesh mandated on Uruk, but instead of just the king (or in the case of the Mongols, the Khan) having that "privilege", every Mongol general had that privilege with every Han woman.

[LegalLoliLover]

What's the historical reference for Ysmir of Elder Scrolls and Izmir of Granblue Fantasy? They sound similar and both refer to a champion of the frosty north. That can't be a coincidence.

[Mattias]

Ymir, maybe?

[LegalLoliLover]

Not direct history, but stuff based on history. As you know, among the games where you can play as Nobunaga, you can actually kill Mitsuhide:

With Mitsuhide saying something hilarious while dying, like "Maybe I wanted to lose all along".
With that in mind, I wonder if something similar will happen should there be a game where you can play as Julius Caesar, with dying Brutus saying something similar (in the Shakespeare play, Brutus was initially hesitant, until Cassius put him up to it). Of course, the traitors' carcasses would still be fed to alligators, anyway:

[LegalLoliLover]

Not tied to any particular story, so I'll just use examples both from modern fiction and historical legends. Anyway, have you noticed that as soon as any side gets labeled a "hero" all their actions are portrayed in a super-positive light, while when any side is labeled a "villain" and does the same action, it's portrayed negatively, such as by music, etc.? For example, Paige Tico sacrificing herself in Star Wars is portrayed as a heroic act of martyrdom, but when any given Imperial officer does a similar suicide bomb, the series makes it look so much worse, like the final act of a madman. In 3 Kingdoms, when Cao Cao's army starved to cannibalism, said act of cannibalism was portrayed as evil ransacking, but when Liu Bei ate a woman, the story essentially said that Liu Bei was such a virtuous man that the peasant in question sacrificed his own wife as an offering to a hero.

[LegalLoliLover]

In that old kids show, Liberty's Kids, when Benjamin Franklin was trying to discuss America's independence with some representative from the British Empire, that rep said that Britain was prepared to fight for another 10 years before granting America its freedom. Franklin responded that America was prepared to fight for another 50 years to win it, and then he responded that he didn't think it would be necessary. Was that a historical quote, or did the series just add that bit of badassness to Franklin's character? This is also the same series that got Arnold Schwarzenegger to play Baron von Steuben.

[LegalLoliLover]

"There are no winners in war." Well, fuck you, too, Chamberlain:

[LegalLoliLover]

Is Samurai Warriors' more Brutus-like Mitsuhide the odd one out? FGO's, Yasuke's, and Sengoku Basara's more Cassius-like portrayal appears to be more common. Also, was Yasuke recruited before or after Nobu's famous Mt. Hiei romp?

[LegalLoliLover]

Uncle Vlad is great and all, but have there been any portrayal of Fred II with dark magical powers?

[LegalLoliLover]

Reading the classic Journey to the West straight from the source, but there are so many plot-based power levels. Like Wukong be able or unable to fight underwater or Wukong be able or unable to make hair clones.

[Castellan]

I notice that while banshees and Dullahans were considered fairies in original Irish legend, modern stories portray them as crying undead, basically La Llorona, and headless undead, respectively.

I want to comment on this for a minute because I think this is a case of people getting somewhat confused: The word 'fairy' as a term doesn't really exist in the Irish lexicon until after large-scale settlement of English and Scottish colonizers in the 18th century and onward, and while the 'fairy faith' grew out of this, prior to that there's no term for 'fairies' in the Irish literature.

The term used by the medieval Irish is Aos Síde, literally "People of the Hills," referring to the large neolithic structures that dot the landscape of Ireland which were thought to be their homes. They're not fairies, they're just a collection of various otherworldly beings that live in an even more hyper-competitive version of the class structure medieval Ireland was already immersed in. While Dullahan don't really come in until the introduction of the 'fairy faith' in the 18th century, and while there's some speculation (because there always is) that they represented some previous being, we have no evidence for that.

As for the banshee, or baen síd, literally "Woman of the Hills," they do show up in the Irish sagas, but they have a very different narrative role to the idea of the modern banshee, which tends to be overwhelmingly hostile - a baen síd was attached to particular noble families and would keen (i.e sing a death wail) for the deceased members of the household whenever one of them died. It was considered to be a sign of status to have a family banshee, and keening plays a fairly important role in the sagas. But importantly, it predates the introduction of the term "fairy" into the Irish lexicon and operates fundamentally differently than people's expectations of what a "fairy" is, which I think is important for understanding how Irish folklore changed in response to colonization.

(Interestingly, we have one example of male keening in the sagas, traditionally considered a 'woman's job' - and it's Cú Chulainn keening at the death of Ferdiad.)

[LegalLoliLover]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat This is a fairly well-known philosophical thought experiment, but one resulting theory is if the scientist in this hypothesis who has that brain in a jar is himself a brain in a jar and that scientist is himself a brain in a jar and so and so on and so forth.
Given this, I'm reminded of those stories where there is an afterlife where you can still die. For example, in Spawn, Clown tells Spawn that he can still die, if he's beheaded, and that's supposedly a permanent death. Ditto with Prinnies in Disgaea who died before making for their sins. However, for people who never believed in an afterlife to begin with, they would have already considered their first death to be the end to begin with. To find out that there is not only an afterlife but one where they can still die would result in questioning in that afterlife has an afterlife, and so and on and so forth.

In the Knights of the Nine expansion of Elder Scrolls Oblivion, according to the Prophet, upon destroying Umaril's spirit form, his soul is "cast into the void" and destroyed, but if you're already a member of the Dark Brotherhood, you're already sending souls to the void on the regular and desire such an outcome for your own soul after you die. However, from what we see in Skyrim, those who serve Sithis loyally and are sent to the void can come back as spectral assassins. Basically, my thought process in this is like the consideration for enlightenment, but while enlightenment usually provides the mental image of going "up", this is more how low can you go. The after-after-after-after-after-afterlife.

[Ideofago]

Metaphysical spiritual mambo, count me in.

[LegalLoliLover]

Both this after-after-after-after-after-afterlife theory and the brain scientist's brain in a brain jar theory have the same theoretically infinite effect of a mirror reflecting off of another mirror.

[Ideofago]

I think I switched Mambo for conga- essentially that Hawaiian(I think) game where you have to test how low you can pass under a horizontal bar without bending your back; a way to say how low can you go.

[Skull]

I think I switched Mambo for conga- essentially that Hawaiian(I think) game where you have to test how low you can pass under a horizontal bar without bending your back; a way to say how low can you go.

That's Limbo, not Mambo or Conga and it's from Trinidad not Hawaii lol.

[Mattias]

Huh, didn't know it originated in Trinidad. Learn something every day.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Question about Arthurian canon as a whole, but is Pellinore a casual rapist regardless of who's writing him, or was that more of a Mallory thing only, since Mallory himself was probably a convicted rapist?