Tabletop Games Thread

[Twelveseal]

Yeah, they definitely felt like Replays, ngl.

[Deathhappens]

Ah, the Drizzt novels. I remember those... *Not* fondly.
Salvatore should have cared more about writing a *novel* than the transcript of RPG sessions.

I read the Drizzt novels in chronological rather than release order (as in, starting with the Underdark trilogy rather than the Icewind Dale one) and that's honestly the last thing I would think to charge them with, especially considering stuff like the Dragonlance novels. If anything, I find the opposite is generally true- the Drizzt novels aretoo much about Drizzt himself, and nowhere near enough about his companions. Bruenor never changed. Raegis never changed. Cattie-brie and Wulfgar changed, and steadily for the worse (from actual characters to essentially plot devices).

At any rate, it's dime-and-nickel fiction, but it's entertaining dime-and-nickel fiction, so it's good enough to waste your time with at least.

[Twelveseal]

So I feel like stirring the pot. Apparently there's some kind of drama going on in social media about whether or not orcs are racist as depicted in mainstream D&D, whether or not that should be changed, etc... It came up in a Discord not long ago, but it was basically a blip to me until I got linked an article about it that reminded me of it. So now I'm curious. What do you folks think of it; the concept of D&D orcs as a racist thing, or D&D in general, its depiction of good and evil races and such. But not just that. Also, what do you think of this kind drama, the push and pull of different ideas and visions for the canon, who you think is right and who isn't, if anyone is at all. Do you think it should change to be more inclusive and accepting, or should tabletop hobbies close the gates against people who want to change their traditions to reflect new or different audiences?

[I3uster]

I like racial differentiation in humanlike races in my scifi and in my fantasy (especially since 5Es options are so dire you can't cut that out too...) but well, it's really not hard to read reactionary thought into early dnd concepts of races that are Always Evil Forever Everytime and the Tolkien fiction that birthed them (LOTR was after all made by an Englishman).

You just really have to question if this is anything worth your time or energy because lmao does this shit actually matter. DnD clearly tries to be way more inclusive and the stupid read of orcs = racists view of black people is simplistic and honestly wrong (the more merituous argument with the description as is is orcs = racists view of murrkan indigenous people, even got the charter school set up baked in there).

DnD especially is a game so malleable people run reactionary rape dungeons and genderfluid elves side by side. Narrative control by WotC is close to nonexistant and the only official product that matter anymore on nerd cultural impact are the critical role related ones. I don't see the argument going anywhere productive especially since 5E designers tend to at least try to sell an inclusive image (if they actually are is up to you i guess)

[SpoonyViking]

Well, I'm of the opinion that representation in various media is often a worthwhile discussion, particularly when we consider how fantasy tends to be self-referential, but as usual, the fans' knee-jerk reaction misses out on nuance and just tries to shut down any debate.

(Plus, let's be honest, a lot of very vocal gamers are reactionary nutjobs or worse.)

It's disingenuous how so many people often pretend fantasy in general and D&D specifically have never made use of racist / xenophobic tropes and language when describing nonhumans, including depicting real-life human cultures as nonhumans. "Standard" D&D (for lack of a better term) is steeped in that sort of thing exactly because the game's roots are a Wild West-like "braving the frontier" fantasy, invoking all the Manifest Destiny both implicit and explicit in the myth of the American Dream; plus, the very concept of "always Evil" races who are also "always 'uncivilised' ", together with the aforementioned inherent assumptions of the PCs exploring and colonising wild frontiers, is very reminiscent of colonialism (certainly not helped that for the majority of its history, D&D has been based on the delusion that pre-Modern periods were exclusively "white").

I'll be honest: I have no idea if 5E's current depiction of orcs employs racist or xenophobic tropes or language simply because I haven't kept up with 5E's settings. (Seriously, WotC, do a limited run or something of Mystara, Points of Light, Fifth Age-Krynn, or Ravenloft!) I wouldn't be surprised if something still snuck in simply because of laziness or being grandfathered in, but it seems the designers have (ostensibly, at least) been making an effort to avoid that kind of thing (as seen with changing the skin tone of the drow), so I'm personally reserving judgement on it while still defending that this is a worthwhile discussion.

Also, I have no patience for the idiotic notion that somehow elves, dwarves and dragons are more realistic than non-whites in a fantasy setting.

[Benderesco]

Also, I have no patience for the idiotic notion that somehow elves, dwarves and dragons are more realistic than non-whites in a fantasy setting.

I think the "realism" argument is perfectly fine if we are talking about, say, a fantasy work that aims to faithfully represent a culture's mythology. In a hodgepodge like D&D, though? Yeah, that sort of argument makes no sense whatsoever.

[SpoonyViking]

I think the "realism" argument is perfectly fine if we are talking about, say, a fantasy work that aims to faithfully represent a culture's mythology. In a hodgepodge like D&D, though? Yeah, that sort of argument makes no sense whatsoever.

Even then, people often forget (or "forget") that pre-Modern Europe had much higher representation of non-whites than portrayed in movies and TV shows. We had "Nubian" Roman legionnaires writing home asking for socks because they were cold, "Moorish" knights of the Round Table, Norsemen explicitly described as being dark-skinned, Norsemen bringing captive Native Americans to Iceland and Europe, etc.

Not to mention that the realism argument is often disingenuous because the very premise of a work of fiction inspired by (or even explicitly set in) a historical or mythological milieu already breaks with "canon". I mean, it's not as if Kratos, for example, was a "real" character in Ancient Greek mythology, right? :-)

[Twelveseal]

Iirc, there was a Kratos demigod. Clearly, he was a cyborg of some kind.

But seriously, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the at least one of the ancestors of the Scottish Clan MacGregor was black. It's not like people didn't travel and trade back then. Sure, ethnicities were certainly more regionally-locked than they are today. That doesn't mean they were uniform.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratos_(mythology)

[Ratman]

Played a bunch of Five Torches Deep lately. If you're looking for an OSR-fied 5e that you can easily present to people and start playing a dungeon crawl, it's been a good one.

[mAc Chaos]

I've been interested in that. How is it? Does it have potential for long term play, or is it something you just play a bit then move on?

[Ratman]

It's pretty good if you want something straightforward but not completely braindead or broken. I don't think you can get more than half a year of single game out of it - not unless you have players pick up a lot of different characters.

Character advancement is mostly exp for gold, which gives you more of a short-term goal too, rather than an epic destiny. That, and there's only 10 levels. Obviously people can play L6 for years too, so if players don't mind not advancing much you can probably sit on it longer.

[Benderesco]

Even then, people often forget (or "forget") that pre-Modern Europe had much higher representation of non-whites than portrayed in movies and TV shows. We had "Nubian" Roman legionnaires writing home asking for socks because they were cold, "Moorish" knights of the Round Table, Norsemen explicitly described as being dark-skinned, Norsemen bringing captive Native Americans to Iceland and Europe, etc.

Not to mention that the realism argument is often disingenuous because the very premise of a work of fiction inspired by (or even explicitly set in) a historical or mythological milieu already breaks with "canon". I mean, it's not as if Kratos, for example, was a "real" character in Ancient Greek mythology, right? :-)

God of War is definitely NOT a work that could make that claim XD I am talking about historically-informed works that attempt to faithfully portray the mythology of a particular culture, since we are talking about fantasy. God of War takes the original myths, twists them around, rips out quite a few pieces and throws what's left into a blender.

The same applies to any Marvel movie, for instance. Is it completely unrealistic for Heimdallr to be black? If we were attempting to represent the original myths, yes, but Marvel's portrayal of Norse mythology is as faithful and accurate as a theme park. If one cares about "realism", there are MANY more things they could complain about (including the fact that Thor is originally a redhead), but suspiciously Heindallr's ethnicity is the ONE artistic choice that is inacceptable. Gee, I wonder why?

[SpoonyViking]

I am talking about historically-informed works that attempt to faithfully portray the mythology of a particular culture, since we are talking about fantasy.

Ok, let's drop the hypotheticals, then. Give concrete examples, please.

The same applies to any Marvel movie, for instance. Is it completely unrealistic for Heimdallr to be black? If we were attempting to represent the original myths, yes,

Why, though?

[Benderesco]

Ok, let's drop the hypotheticals, then. Give concrete examples, please.

I am going to take this opportunity to recommend a movie I appreciate: The Three Treasures, one of Hiroshi Inagaki's underappreciated works. While by no means 100% accurate when it comes to the legends, it still attempts to portray an important part of japanese mythology with a high degree of respect for the original sources. In a work like this, you would expect the characters to be all japanese.

Why, though?

Internal consistency with the myths AND the peoples who originally disseminated these tales. He was known as the whitest-skinned of the gods, the shining god, and while most of what we know about nordic mythology comes from compilations that are relatively "new" (and which took a few liberties by injecting several christian themes), the chances of the original attestations ever envisioning Heimdallr as anything other than a white man are about as high as those of Anansi ever being seen as anything other than a black man (or, at least, being coded as a black man in the perspective of the original worshippers).

But, once again, this point is moot when it comes to the works being discussed here. Reiterating what I said in my previous post, complaining about Idris Elba playing Heimdallr, for instance, is absolutely stupid, especially since Marvel's portrayal of the myths is rife with inaccuracies. It really makes it sound like the complainers just have a problem with black people.

[warellis]

How is Heimdallr portrayed in Marvel comics?

Because I suspect for Marvel movies, complainers are more obsessed with "must look exactly like the comic book character."

[SpoonyViking]

I am going to take this opportunity to recommend a movie I appreciate: The Three Treasures, one of Hiroshi Inagaki's underappreciated works. While by no means 100% accurate when it comes to the legends, it still attempts to portray an important part of japanese mythology with a high degree of respect for the original sources.

Oh, seems interesting! I'll look for it.

In a work like this, you would expect the characters to be all japanese.

Perhaps, but let me bring it back to the original discussion for a moment: does casting a black man as Heimdall - even in a direct adaptation of the myths - necessarily mean the character isn't Norse anymore (whatever that means for a divine being who predated humanity)?

Internal consistency with the myths AND the peoples who originally disseminated these tales.

Hvítastr doesn't necessarily mean "white" as in the colour of his skin. It may be more accurately* translated as "most shining" or "brightest", and may just be a reference to gleaming armour and weaponry.

More importantly, the original myths aren't necessarily internally coherent, so why expect such slavish devotion to something (the color of Heimdall's skin) which really wasn't important in any of them? I mean, we already accept the guy was born from nine mothers with no father...

- - - Updated - - -

How is Heimdallr portrayed in Marvel comics?

Because I suspect for Marvel movies, complainers are more obsessed with "must look exactly like the comic book character."

Nah, Bender is right, the problem was just that they cast a black man.


ETA: * It may also have only meant that Heimdall was blond, or even that he was effeminate (seems the word gained that connotation at some point).

[Mattias]

How is Heimdallr portrayed in Marvel comics?

Because I suspect for Marvel movies, complainers are more obsessed with "must look exactly like the comic book character."

IIRC he's always wearing a near full helmet and his eye's are often shrouded in stars. You only ever really see his mouth and chin.

[aldeayeah]

His classic comic look is a dark haired white dude with a horned helmet.

Considering the character design dates back to 1962 (from a popular culture perspective, he slightly predates the Beatles' first release), that was to be expected

[SpoonyViking]

Oh yeah, he used to have dark hair, didn't he? His hair has also been brown and red at various points.

[Deathhappens]

Debating morality in D&D is kind of pointless considering it's a world where absolute good and absolute evil do exist and are in fact fundamental pillars of existence (I'm talking, of course, about Outsiders). Actual intelligent races of the Material Plane are never "always and forever" evil; the case of a particular Dark Elf we were discussing just a while ago comes to mind. Exceptions exist for some Aberrations like the Illithid and the Kuo-Toa, I think, but then there's always been hints of them not being exactly native denizens to the Material anyway.