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Thread: Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

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    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    It does not
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly

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    whydunit Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    Weird that they weren't shown at all in trailers.
    Well we've only had two trailers so far and one of them was just showing Tamamo's animations.

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    'You cannot escape your hunger, Warriors of Purgatory' ResidentSeagull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriulio View Post
    Expecting a company headed by Kinoko "don't worry female gamers, Extella isn't that hard" Nasu to be good with LGBT representation is a big mistake.
    based mushroom strikes again

    Spoiler:


    jesuschristijustcant

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    This is true, even when d'Eon is in the game. Then again, they're also pro-royalty, which isn't great.
    Mostly pro-royalty in comparison to the Reign of Terror, which, considering what happened to Olympe de Gouges, wasn’t particularly “progressive” in any regard other than outlawing slavery (which was still notable)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cylascream View Post
    i mean expecting japan of all countries to contribute to lgbt is a mistake, religious countries in general don't vibe with these topics
    Japan is a functionally irreligious country. Capitalism and state patronage of religion tend to destroy actual popular religiosity.

    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Well, in terms of story Extella doesn't really appeal to women in the slightest, with the exception of lesbians with a macro fetish
    Eh, the fujos I know liked it a lot because of how many guys there were and how little clothing you could give them.

  5. #71725
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sssgth View Post
    Mostly pro-royalty in comparison to the Reign of Terror, which, considering what happened to Olympe de Gouges, wasn’t particularly “progressive” in any regard other than outlawing slavery (which was still notable)



    Japan is a functionally irreligious country. Capitalism and state patronage of religion tend to destroy actual popular religiosity.
    D'Éon was also an actual deep stater, at least during the reign of Louis XV.

    As for Japanese religiosity, it's seeming irreligiousness is in large part due to Japanese people not interacting with religion in a way that Westerners view as particularly religious, though even temple and shrine visits are declining, so...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Totally agree about the capitalism part, though
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

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    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle
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    There isn’t a 100% connection between LGBT identity and “woke” political views—the presence of Log Cabin Republicans in the USA and essays about how drone strikes “queer” the experience of killing in warfare is proof enough. As much as you or I may hate the CIA and FBI, there’s little about them these days that means a person with a marginalized identity should object to them purely on the grounds of identity. Plenty of recruitment ads talk about how minorities can “find their voice” working in intelligence.

    In regards to religion, “old religion” that focuses on orthopraxy (ceremony) rather than orthodoxy (belief) is fundamentally ill-suited to the modern era. It generally seeks to explain natural phenomena (meaning science can “disprove” it) and shies away from philosophical morality (something that cannot be “disproven,” and that the modern world very much needs). In my opinion, Japan shot itself in the foot by outlawing shinbutsu-shūgō, the quasi-modern religion that syncretized Buddhism and Shinto, during the Meiji Restoration, which made “old religion” their national heritage and “modern religion” an external factor. But that’s just me shooting from the hip, and someone with better knowledge can come correct me and get politics out of this thread.

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    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    True, you can't object to the military or intelligence agencies purely on identity, but it's important to realize that even as they co-opt progressive messaging, they exist to reinforce a hierarchy that disenpowers those identities.

    Also, with regards to orthopraxy vs orthodoxy in Japan, I don't think Japan outlawing shinbutsu-shūgō was the thing that caused a post-WWII decline in religiosity, and even if it didn't help things, I'd say the atomization and alienation of mid- to late-stage capitalism did far more to separate Japanese people from traditional religious practice, especially with regards to people entering the Buddhist clergy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

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    Only due to institutional inertia—one can imagine a CIA that has diversified, and is no less effective at protecting the interests of American and global capital.

    And of course capitalism was the main culprit. But like you said, Japanese religion is fundamentally different than what “we” see as “religion”—which makes the nation seem less religious to us, and is partly due to shinbutsu-bunri

  9. #71729
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sssgth View Post
    Only due to institutional inertia—one can imagine a CIA that has diversified, and is no less effective at protecting the interests of American and global capital.
    That is somewhat true, and if it happens, the hierarchy will simply reorient itself to exploit new divisions and a new underclass. However, so long as the current stratifications, class, race, gender, and sexuality-based, continue to enable the accumulation of capital by the wealthy and powerful, they will be used to do so. Anti-black racism, for example, has proven incredibly resilient, even in cases where there is no overt individual racism, like when the NFL systemically compensates black retired athletes less for concussions. They may not be overtly racist, but old racist ideas about pain tolerance let them cheap out on settlement money.
    Last edited by SirGauoftheSquareTable; September 25th, 2021 at 02:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    That is somewhat true, and if it happens, the hierarchy will simply reorient itself to exploit new divisions and a new underclass. However, so long as the current stratifications, class, race, gender, and sexuality-based, continue to enable the accumulation of capital by the wealthy and powerful, they will be used to do so. Anti-black racism, for example, has proven incredibly resilient, even in cases where there is no overt individual racism, like when the NFL systemically compensates black retired athletes less for concussions. They may not be overtly racist, but old racist ideas about pain tolerance let them cheap out on settlement money.
    The near-instant recuperation of BLM with the interests of capital, as well as the rise of explicitly self-interested social justice grifting, makes me think that the stratification is going to become more “equal” on every ground except class. The plebs hate each other for their differences alone enough now that a difference in privileges is no longer necessary to divide them, and making every identity visible in the elite will give them a modicum of faith in the system

  11. #71731
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sssgth View Post
    The near-instant recuperation of BLM with the interests of capital, as well as the rise of explicitly self-interested social justice grifting, makes me think that the stratification is going to become more “equal” on every ground except class. The plebs hate each other for their differences alone enough now that a difference in privileges is no longer necessary to divide them, and making every identity visible in the elite will give them a modicum of faith in the system
    That might happen, but class has never been divorced from other religious, ethnic, or other lines, and even if it initially is not, there will exist cultural fault lines that originate along class lines. In fact, that's already somewhat the case in our world. Moreover, even if rainbow capitalism has coopted the message of Black Lives Matter, when it comes to their bottom line, they will keep exploiting marginalized groups, such as poor black people, as long as they can get away with it and don't actually have any interest in dismantling the existing racial hierarchy unless there's a much higher reward than risk. In the meantime, they can just posture at progressive messaging while not having to do any of the actual work that might undermine their power and profits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  12. #71732
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    In my opinion, the “reward” is higher efficiency, so long as the work of explaining poverty away as an individual moral failing is done. And that work is being done—see the discourse about not giving money to “privileged” homeless people of various sorts—“how do you have all that privilege and STILL end up on the streets!?”

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    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Of course the work of trying to explain poverty as a moral failing is still being done, and I agree that many large corporations have found it advantageous to their bottom line to try and court progressives with varying degrees of action. However, I think what that action will ultimately amount to is greater individual marginalized group representation in the upper echelons of society, but a working class that looks mostly the same. Equality just isn't possible under capitalism, and I think it's heartening that more people are realizing that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  14. #71734
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    Of course the work of trying to explain poverty as a moral failing is still being done, and I agree that many large corporations have found it advantageous to their bottom line to try and court progressives with varying degrees of action. However, I think what that action will ultimately amount to is greater individual marginalized group representation in the upper echelons of society, but a working class that looks mostly the same. Equality just isn't possible under capitalism, and I think it's heartening that more people are realizing that.
    Yeah, the “diverse faces in high places” is happening while the poor stay poor—that’s the “woke grifting” I was talking about. Capitalism is having a crisis of legitimacy, but there’s a grim chance that due to the automation of capital, its destruction may be impossible with human hands. Stock trading is done almost entirely by artificial intelligence now, and algorithms are now almost inscrutable to their creators.

    The idea of capitalism as a cargo cult, or a Lovecraftian god (insert MHXX joke here) has been around for a while. It got its start with Mises and the Mont Pelerin Society trying to halt the development of econometrics, comparing the free market to a god and any attempts to harness and control it to blasphemy. Today, we have Land and his right-wing accelerationists hailing the coming of Roko’s Basilisk as the telos of capitalism, and unironically treating “who will be eaten first?” as the result and reward of supporting its descent.

    If you get enough paperclip-maximizing AIs, the wealthy can put capitalism on the top shelf, so that once they disappear, nobody else will be able to ever stop it. That seems like the real end goal of computerizing everything, once the apocalypticism is out of the way.

    Things are bleak, really. Better to just play mobage and ignore the inevitable downfall of society

  15. #71735
    Lost in Paradise RoydGolden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sssgth View Post
    Yeah, the “diverse faces in high places” is happening while the poor stay poor—that’s the “woke grifting” I was talking about. Capitalism is having a crisis of legitimacy, but there’s a grim chance that due to the automation of capital, its destruction may be impossible with human hands. Stock trading is done almost entirely by artificial intelligence now, and algorithms are now almost inscrutable to their creators.

    The idea of capitalism as a cargo cult, or a Lovecraftian god (insert MHXX joke here) has been around for a while. It got its start with Mises and the Mont Pelerin Society trying to halt the development of econometrics, comparing the free market to a god and any attempts to harness and control it to blasphemy. Today, we have Land and his right-wing accelerationists hailing the coming of Roko’s Basilisk as the telos of capitalism, and unironically treating “who will be eaten first?” as the result and reward of supporting its descent.

    If you get enough paperclip-maximizing AIs, the wealthy can put capitalism on the top shelf, so that once they disappear, nobody else will be able to ever stop it. That seems like the real end goal of computerizing everything, once the apocalypticism is out of the way.

    Things are bleak, really. Better to just play mobage and ignore the inevitable downfall of society
    I feel a more hopeful possibility would be that automation of labor leads to support for universal basic income since even wealthier and high-status people might eventually start having their jobs made redundant. Also I'm pretty sure Land-style "turn the world into computronium for the god of capitalism" philosophy is extremely fringe and if you're generalizing to any kind of broader movement from that you're guilty of paying too much attention to what a few weirdos on the internet think. (Yeah, weirdos may eventually have their ideas reach the mainstream but... most don't, for obvious reasons).

  16. #71736
    Back to discussing FGO plz. Go to twitter if you want to talk about this very interesting stuff.

  17. #71737
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    It’s definitely more hopeful, but I don’t see it as feasible. Once the elite doesn’t need the masses in order to survive, the masses become nothing but a threat to them. They can’t kill us all off at once, sure, but rewarding those who help them do the job could do the trick. Gladiatorial games, suicide booths, The Wanting Seed-style fake wars—the awful possibilities are endless. Turning the world into computronium may not be a real aim, but plenty of Silicon Valley billionaires have plans and bunkers for after “collapse” and are trying to figure out how to make explosive collars for their bodyguards. If the end of the world is no threat to them, who’s to say they won’t cause it themselves?

    (We need more meaningful JP story content soon, this thread is no place for political discussion)

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    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sssgth View Post
    Yeah, the “diverse faces in high places” is happening while the poor stay poor—that’s the “woke grifting” I was talking about. Capitalism is having a crisis of legitimacy, but there’s a grim chance that due to the automation of capital, its destruction may be impossible with human hands. Stock trading is done almost entirely by artificial intelligence now, and algorithms are now almost inscrutable to their creators.

    The idea of capitalism as a cargo cult, or a Lovecraftian god (insert MHXX joke here) has been around for a while. It got its start with Mises and the Mont Pelerin Society trying to halt the development of econometrics, comparing the free market to a god and any attempts to harness and control it to blasphemy. Today, we have Land and his right-wing accelerationists hailing the coming of Roko’s Basilisk as the telos of capitalism, and unironically treating “who will be eaten first?” as the result and reward of supporting its descent.

    If you get enough paperclip-maximizing AIs, the wealthy can put capitalism on the top shelf, so that once they disappear, nobody else will be able to ever stop it. That seems like the real end goal of computerizing everything, once the apocalypticism is out of the way.

    Things are bleak, really. Better to just play mobage and ignore the inevitable downfall of society
    Roko's Basilisk is a thought experiment for idiots whose whole basis is incoherent nonsense, but I agree about capitalism being more and more depersonalized and divorced from our reality. However, I don't agree that capitalism has ever been particularly personal. Sure, the wealthy operate the systems, but the systems themselves are fundamentally depersonalized, even without AI or automation, and even if we executed all of the rich, new rich people would just come and replace them.

    Also, doomerism is counterproductive to our own survival, and we gotta keep fighting, even as we live in a shitty capitalist system and are fed more and more mobage. I mean, I'll play, and I do think that some of them, or at least Fire Emblem Heroes, have some surprisingly anarchist elements in their stories and setup, but still, we gotta live, we gotta fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by RoydGolden View Post
    I feel a more hopeful possibility would be that automation of labor leads to support for universal basic income since even wealthier and high-status people might eventually start having their jobs made redundant. Also I'm pretty sure Land-style "turn the world into computronium for the god of capitalism" philosophy is extremely fringe and if you're generalizing to any kind of broader movement from that you're guilty of paying too much attention to what a few weirdos on the internet think. (Yeah, weirdos may eventually have their ideas reach the mainstream but... most don't, for obvious reasons).
    Of course, UBI is great, and I would support any unconditional implementation, BUT I think the idea that automation under a capitalist system would lead to wealthy people feeling threatened by bots to institute UBI is quite optimistic and misplaced. They'd institute UBI for the same reason FDR instituted the New Deal, to prevent a labor uprising and to save capitalism. Peoples' lives would be materially better with the money, but the systems keeping them poor would stay in place, and it would probably get gutted over time, just like most benefits in the United States.

    Also, I think this has been a great chat, but yeah, let's get back to FGO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  19. #71739
    The Long-Forgotten Sight Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    Kama is cute and I am happy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

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    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Speaking of her, is she only a loli in one ascension, or what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

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