I think it was because their position in Buddhism was below a Buddha or Boddhisattva, heck even Shiva was downgraded to a mere God of Fortune in Japan and the fact that most of the times they're mentioned as their Buddhism or Japanese counterpart did not help either.Originally Posted by Sione
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Also the fact that Nasu favors Buddhism makes it worse i think.
I mean Indra equated to Raikou is a huge insult to Indra and a huge wank for the Japanese. Not to forget wanking Tamamo and Amateratsu to 大日如来
We also have gems like Arjuna jobbing to Scatha and the disappearance of Attila the Hun. While Sefar is cool and all, it doesn't justifying erasing Attila the Hun from history and for some reason belittle Karl since for some reason they became related to Aliens.
Last edited by rxrx; May 22nd, 2022 at 02:38 AM.
FWIW in my country Vietnam, we generally refer to Hinduism as " đạo Bà La Môn" (literally means "religion of the Brahmin") or "Vệ Đà giáo" (Vedas religion). Not many ppl here would understand what you're talking about if you use the term "đạo Hindu" (Hinduism).
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Incorrect. What nerfed the Devas was Nasu favoritism towards Taoism. Devas are still very powerful in Buddhist tradition and are usually guardians of Buddha (Indra even appeared when Buddha is born). They are also all capable of becoming Buddhas and vast majority of devas live in higher heavens together with bodhisattvas.
Devas in Taoism however, are below the ranks of both Buddhas and Xians, and aren't really impressive minus a very few top tiers who are also syncretized with certain Xians or heavenly generals.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; May 22nd, 2022 at 02:44 AM.
That line of thinking is probably what made Divine Spirits in general so unimpressive compared to Faeries or True Ancestor shenanigans.
For the first part, that clearly isn't what they were going for, and I think you know it.
Also, the Devas have been continuously nerfed within our tradition for the past 1500 years at least. They've become wimpier and less revered to the point that I don't remember ever praying to them or learning shlokas for them.
I see, too bad that Nasu did them dirty. Just like how the Greek pantheon are the biggest in west, Hindu is the biggest pantheon in east and has the biggest influence all over Asia.
Can't say that description of mainline/"orthodox" Hinduism is inaccurate. Especially since people like Vivekananda attempted to define it as "Vedanta", which I honestly think is insultingly Brahmin-centric.
Also, I did not know that about Taoism, and now I know why to be sort of miffed at Nasu.
CMIIW. Is the 'nerf' related to them being referred as dharmapalas?
Has this anything to do with the growing influence of Buddhism?
Just like Shinto.
Yes, but it's more than that. When absorbed into Buddhism, the entire Hindu pantheon became a part of multiple heavens in the Buddhist cosmology. And although these devas are still powerful, still capable of governing natural phenomenon, live extremely long lifespan, they are considered mortal beings who will eventually pass away without the effect of things like the amrita and will continue to drop into the circle of reincarnation. Indra for example, known as Sakra, is now just one title of the guy ruling this specific heaven, and when he is dead he will be replaced by another Sakra. However, these devas can still attain buddhahood, it's not the end for them.
Now what did Taoism do? Well Indra is still strong, syncretized with the Jade Emperor. However the Jade Emperor is also only the one governing one of the dozen heavens, and he is a subordinate of Yuanshi Tianzun (Jiang Ziya's Master). These devas are also mortal and needs to eat Xian peaches to keep longevity. They have to learn the Taoism arts to cultivate and become more powerful. Had it stop there, then it wouldn't be so different from when Buddhism adopted them into their cosmology. Taoism went further to absorb Buddhism into their own cosmology becuz Huizong emperor is a hack.
In this new system, Buddhas are regarded as Xians from India, and assimilated into the ranks of the Xians (in this context, Xians and Buddhas/Bodhisattvas are view in a much closer meaning to the term "hermit") and Gautama Buddha as well as the highest Buddhas are Xians of the Golden Rank, sitting in the same tier as Nuwa and the Three Pure Ones, the "Golden" rank is because Buddhist statues are golden colored, they add in that buddhas of this rank has been training in Buddhist art to the point of having gigantic immortal golden bodies (which later gave ideas to some writers to make Buddha into golden mecha aliens, glad Nasu didn't see those manhua). BUT, even when this rank is already extremely high to the point that the gap between this rank and the rank right below them is literally "impossible to obtain", there is still ANOTHER rank ABOVE the 3 pure ones and the Golden Buddhas, that is the rank of the one best representing the Tao itself. In other words, the highest rank of an entity in Taoism that is not the Taiji, is an entity similar to Typemoon's Shiki Ryougi (Void).
Tldr: Think about it like this: in Buddhism, all things already existed and are part of an endless cycle of reincarnation, and there are high and lower tier beings with devas being the highest. These beings can go further and beyond by ascending into Buddhahood and escape the cycle. OTOH in Taoism, because everything originates from the Tao (represented by the Taiji), and gods are manifestation of the chi of the Tao, there are literally INFINITE amount of gods, devas, yokais...etc that are far from being fully documented. Therefore, as more of these entities ascend to Xianhood, there will also be INFINITE amount of Xians in theory. When you are part of such infinite pantheon, unless you are one of those "pillars" that are constant at the top never to be replaced, you are extremely unimpressive.
Isnt buddhism very small in india or we referring to somewhere else?
Well fae is just a combo of OC and arturian wank. And tbh the difference between true gods and divine spirits isnt super obvious most of the time which I feel very VERY much hurts, of course it mostly feels irrelevant tbh if you compare true gods like scath vs some of the other stuff.
I see. Very interesting. Thanks for the explanations.
I wonder why Nasu never try to hide his superiority complex, i mean wanking your home country Hero by relying on other people greatness is just look really shameless to me.
It's a bit unfair to call it "wanking" honestly. So far the only true "wanking" appropriately applies only to the British Arthurian mythos (meaning that TM has to make up 80% of the mythology and severely exaggerate their power-level scale). As I've said, it's more of the consequence of TM embracing the "All Myths Are True" cosmology. These kind of systemic syncretism did exist IRL, and to invalidate it, in this case, means invalidating the Japanese mythology specifically. Reversely, this also mean that, like Lily Emilio explained with Taoism, the other mythology that got syncretized suffers from powerlevel one-uppance.
Last edited by Sione; May 22nd, 2022 at 08:13 AM.
I mean honestly does the syncrenetism actually benefit jp myth? it feels like outside of say sakurai and some occasional other things they mostly avoid it,. It mostly just once again has the syncrenetism eat mythology, it isnt needed, you can show ammy without this unholy hydra of syncremetism
It doesnt benefit, greek myth, nor any western ones really. it only ever benefits author favorites and buddhism.
I feel like it's a mess at this point where unless the retcon hammer is brought out a lot of the myths are very hard to write, which is maybe one reason I think nasu has avoided jp myth because he iether wants to do MORE or has semi 'trapped himself'
Last edited by Byegod; May 22nd, 2022 at 08:26 AM.
Syncretism (meaning interactions of cultures and religions) is great actually, and I really want to see more of it. TM kind of screwed up with the Greek Pantheon in this case because the concept of the Machine Gods basically invalidates more organic syncretism, such as the Dyaus-Pita/Deus Pater/Zeus evolution or the Aphrodite Mesopotamian origin.
It benefits all religions that used it, expanding their roster and their reach to wider audiences in the culture sphere they try to influence. The main reason for syncretism of Buddhism is to show that all beings are capable of becoming Buddhas, different from other usage like Huizong emperor did with Taoism to reduce the relevance and influences of Buddhism and Hinduism. Christianity in Vietnam now also moved to slowly allow limited reverence of ancestors and national heroes (something used to be deemed as a sign of polytheism) through technicality in the usage of incense (following an OK from the pope back in 1960 iirc, but moved very slowly) because of Vietnamese folk belief being critical to the country's identity. The conservatives will still be conservative about it, but the more open approach has been adopted across younger generation of Christians.
Well, its not like Amaterasu can't stand alone without being syncretized with Vairocana. At the same time Vairocana gone from existence leaving Amaterasu as the biggest figure in Buddhism. The syncretism only benefiting Japanese side while Buddhism must suffer from the fact that their Supreme Being transformed into
Sun goddess.
The fact that Amaterasu being syncretized with Vairocana come from a small sect with little influence also shows Nasu's favoritism and superiority complex, wanking your national hero is fine i can atleast understand that but taking over other people greatness and invalidating their Mythology? What do you call that if not shameless?
Just curious, do Christians over there pay respects to their ancestors, family members and national heroes before the OK from the Pope? Some places against these are mainly not because of Christianity, but out of fear of getting too close to Confucianism and Chinese traditions.
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