Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[Comun]

How do you know that would even be enough to transcend anything, beyond just being "humanity but with a few more IQ points on average"?

I don't think this would change anyone's argument, but judging by the setting cosmogony and Kirschtaria's belief that higher intellect would make people inherently more compassionate, there's an at least 60% chance that "intellect" doesn't mean "IQ points on average", it means "proximity to Buddha status".

Those are very different concepts, considering Kiara is just one step behind a Buddha but she is dumb as bricks. Again, this doesn't mean anything to the discussion of Kirschtaria's right to make the decision for others, but hopefully nipping out this one misconception will make the whole debate slightly more readable.

[InsertNameHere]

Kirschtaria's idea is actually very similar to Taoist attempts tbh. He wants to give human a body of superior power, lifespan and potential. Taoist practitioners aimed to become immortal, flawless Xians, leaving behind mortal problems, as a collective society of transcended beings. Pretty much his reasoning isn't that far off from existing ideas. You either "worship a god or gods to hope for their guidance and maybe going to Heaven" or "you attain the same level of enlightenment as the gods to escape the mortal limitations". Kirshtaria's idea is unironically very human, he even admitted himself that he is not excluded from making mistakes. It's just that he believed there is no way humans at this point can do what he thought to be a better world and he went for it. Maybe he himself, just like he said, also made a wrong decision, but he will try it anyways.

And I believe that he is mistaken in that belief and gives humanity too little credit. Yes, they do frequently make mistakes, but they can still be right in spite of them. I also believe that the very idea of progress he (and to a lesser extent Nasu) advocates is fundamentally mistaken. While things may be different in the Nasuverse (and even if they are, all the evidence shows that trying to accelerate humanity's approach to that goal is counterproductive), in the real world evolution has no regard for teleology and "progress" often ends up being a smokescreen to justify the conquest and colonization of people arbitrarily deemed inferior. In fact, one could say that the self-destructiveness in spreading and dominating with no regard for the consequences is part and parcel of life as we know it, as evidenced by the advent of the first photosynthesizing organisms directly leading to a mass extinction when they filled the atmosphere with oxygen that poisoned the majority of life on Earth (as most life forms back then were anaerobic and could not survive exposure to atmospheric oxygen).

Nasu doesn't try to make you agree with him, nor trying to say he is right, dude just wrote a story about a guy wanting to turn humans into gods because he thought that would be the solution to all issues. Idk why readers keep trying to imagine Nasu drilling ideas into their head and make them accept it. If anything, Kirschtaria's plan would be most appealing to Taoists and Buddhists, who doesn't actually need convincing in the first place because they are literally aiming to attain the similar thing Kirschtaria want humans to attain.

He wrote a story about a guy wanting to be a hero of justice and didn't just present the concept at face value, but instead deconstructed it to show its flaws and weaknesses as well as its merits. Why shouldn't I expect the same from the story about the guy wanting to to turn humans into gods because he thought that would be the solution to all issues and be disappointed when said deconstruction doesn't happen?

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InsertNameHsre here seems to be fine with just being human with all the flaws, and being presented with ideas to be anything else offends them.

At the end of the day, it's a fictional story, and the ideas it present don't dictate what people should follow or believe, they are free to either agree or disagree with what it tells.

To be more precise, it's the idea that I'm not allowed to make the decision as to whether or not I wish to be anything else that offends me. Perhaps one day I might seek such a transcendence for myself, but it will be on my terms and only my terms. And I certainly won't demand that anyone else follow me in taking it.

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I don't think this would change anyone's argument, but judging by the setting cosmogony and Kirschtaria's belief that higher intellect would make people inherently more compassionate, there's an at least 60% chance that "intellect" doesn't mean "IQ points on average", it means "proximity to Buddha status".

Those are very different concepts, considering Kiara is just one step behind a Buddha but she is dumb as bricks. Again, this doesn't mean anything to the discussion of Kirschtaria's right to make the decision for others, but hopefully nipping out this one misconception will make the whole debate slightly more readable.

My interpretation was that he was conflating the two meanings you speak of, unaware that one does not necessarily require the other. The same goes for wisdom.

[Nanaya]

Why shouldn't I expect the same from the story about the guy wanting to to turn humans into gods because he thought that would be the solution to all issues and be disappointed when said deconstruction doesn't happen?

Because you're playing a mobile gacha.

[Lily Emilio]

He wrote a story about a guy wanting to be a hero of justice and didn't just present the concept at face value, but instead deconstructed it to show its flaws and weaknesses as well as its merits. Why shouldn't I expect the same from the story about the guy wanting to to turn humans into gods because he thought that would be the solution to all issues and be disappointed when said deconstruction doesn't happen?

Kirschtaria literally got into a debate with Holmes right afterwards, then when Holmes pointed out the flaws that people will still cause conflicts anyways Kirsch was like yeah I know but I still believe eventually humans will find a way with the unlimited lifespan I will give them hopium mix with copium trust me bro.

Holmes seeing that there's nothing left do debate with this guy went silence. It's not a sign of accepting the guy is right, but rather seeing there's no use debating with the guy who is high on hopium and copium mixture. The readers should already understood the flaws of the plan at that point, so idk why you did not see that. If you want an essay of 1000 words like in FSN, think again of what kind of game you are playing atm.

To be more precise, it's the idea that I'm not allowed to make the decision as to whether or not I wish to be anything else that offends me. Perhaps one day I might seek such a transcendence for myself, but it will be on my terms and only my terms. And I certainly won't demand that anyone else follow me in taking it.

What changes is that you are immortal, you have more brain power to do the things humans can't due to their own biological limitations. The plan doesn't change you into some entirely new entity, it's literally just upgrading your body to superhuman-godly level like the heroic spirits. Literally nothing else changed, other than the fact that now you can either use your newfound brain power and immortality to do more things. In fact, throughout history and even now, the pursuit for longer lifespan and improving the brain power of humans are still hot topic in medical researches across the world. Kirshtaria basically wants to give it for free. I personally would not reject free lifespan and more brain power, I am that practical since it benefits me. But you are free to not like it. Doesn't mean people (and Nasu) are forcing you to like that idea.

[fumei]

What makes your godhood any different from the human state beyond "because it'll be different"? What makes you certain that greater intelligence and wisdom won't make things worse instead of better? How do you know that would even be enough to transcend anything, beyond just being "humanity but with a few more IQ points on average"? How do you know that these posthumans won't end up disrupting their new system too, assuming they even bother to interact with each other at all? After all, a god who has no need of anything would therefore have no need of even acknowledging the existence of his own kind, let alone forming a society with them.

And why should I compare anarchist communities that actually exist, small as they may be, to a state of being that doesn't exist anywhere and almost certainly never will? At least it has actual precedence in human history, as opposed to a state of existence that can only be defined by what it isn't. Hell, that kind of change isn't even limited to humans- look up the work of Dr. Robert Sapolsky on baboons and you'll see how a supposedly irrevocable state of nature isn't nearly as fixed as it looks.

One does not need to insist upon a unitary human nature to understand that nobody is perfect and that their flaws will shape what their natures are. You cannot transcend those flaws, but you can adapt and compensate for them. I am no different.

Speaking of "passing the controller", Kirschtaria himself didn't seem to have a problem doing that with Chaldea after realizing his plan failed. I will pass the torch when it is absolutely and undisputably clear that there is nothing left, but until then anything else is giving up and taking the coward's way out. At the end of the day, "humanity" is just a concept, one I for one use as shorthand for "the people as I know and love the way they are": I would fight against your vaunted godhood even if it was both possible and did everything that it claimed to simply because I accept myself as I am now and have no desire to have that change on anyone's terms but my own. Ironic that despite otherwise being utterly loathsome, Beryl was right about this one thing: such a change would be little more than spiritual rape if it is not accepted willingly and freely. All my life, when I've been told that I need to change aspects of myself that define what I am, it's essentially been a polite way of saying that the person telling me that would prefer that I be replaced by a version of me more to their liking.

If you want that godhood, then keep it for yourself and stop trying to tell me what is and isn't best for me or anyone else. I'll be busy trying to make actual changes that make the world a better place for no reason save that it pleases me to do so, and will do so in my own way. If you disapprove of that, stop me if you can.

The thing that makes the case for all those hypotheticals is because that's the scenario presented to you in the story. At this point, we're so far from still discussing the merits of Kirschtaria's plan in the story, because you're seemingly acting as if Kirschtaria is coming into your home and forcing this onto you in real life, or that me arguing for him being right is an equivalent action. "If you disapprove of that, stop me if you can," like, what do you think this is?

Either way, your arguments just keep being based entirely in "transcended godhood isn't real, so sticking with the real alternative even if it's worse is better", which according to me makes little to no sense when arguing the scenario presented by the fictional story. This discussion would be a much better one if you would move away from trying to insert the obviously impossible plan into real life, and think about how it works in the story and the relevant universe.

At the end of the day, "humanity" is just a concept, one I for one use as shorthand for "the people as I know and love the way they are": I would fight against your vaunted godhood even if it was both possible and did everything that it claimed to simply because I accept myself as I am now and have no desire to have that change on anyone's terms but my own.

But most of all, I feel like this just proves my point about humans and the self-safeguarding of consciousness rejecting anything else. If Kirschtaria's plan was successful, he posits that not only could "humans", in their transcendence, finally solve all their trivial human matters, but would eventually advance so far as to eventually help the rest of creation. What you posit is that you would reject that if you did not personally feel like it. Thus my saying that leaving the choices up to the people in the world and expecting them to just "come together and work it out" isn't feasible. Doing so in real life, where there is no magical way out (though I have qualms about such individualism as well) is one thing, but that's not the case in the story. There, what is effectively the simplified scenario is that a genie is telling you that you can help all of humanity and after that all other life and the planet, but it gets rejected because of individualistic considerations. On that basis do I personally refute your argument here (insofar as they even relate to the story anymore at this point). Hell, even in Chaldea's case, they also have the matter of consideration that if they accept Kirschtaria's plan that means entirely giving up on the possibility of getting PHH back, which is a no-go. Actually, if you think about their scenario, they're fighting entirely for something that might not even be possible, and they have no idea how they will accomplish, but they do it anyway, which is what the story presents as being "right" in this case (more or less, at least), and in that sense I do think that there's somewhat of an in-story refutation of your (sidetracked) arguments about "this is possible in reality so I'll stick to that instead of something that isn't proven".

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He wrote a story about a guy wanting to be a hero of justice and didn't just present the concept at face value, but instead deconstructed it to show its flaws and weaknesses as well as its merits. Why shouldn't I expect the same from the story about the guy wanting to to turn humans into gods because he thought that would be the solution to all issues and be disappointed when said deconstruction doesn't happen?

One is a 70-hour long story entirely about this theme, the other is the closing section of a chapter in a mobile gacha game, in which only the current chapter at the time dealt with the plan at hand. I would not expect any plotline in FGO to compare to an equivalent in FSN, or any full VN for that matter.

[Rafflesiac]

But if you truly want to break free of that cursed cycle of consciousness, as you call it, there's only one way to do so: by ending that consciousness. I assume you know what I mean by that.

Bro you just told told someone to kill himself over fucking FGO. And it wasn't even because he rolled your waifu.

Truly, it's sad when one can imagine the end of the world more easily than the end of capitalism and hierarchy.

[InsertNameHere]

Kirschtaria literally got into a debate with Holmes right afterwards, then when Holmes pointed out the flaws that people will still cause conflicts anyways Kirsch was like yeah I know but I still believe eventually humans will find a way with the unlimited lifespan I will give them hopium mix with copium trust me bro.

Holmes seeing that there's nothing left do debate with this guy went silence. It's not a sign of accepting the guy is right, but rather seeing there's no use debating with the guy who is high on hopium and copium mixture. The readers should already understood the flaws of the plan at that point, so idk why you did not see that. If you want an essay of 1000 words like in FSN, think again of what kind of game you are playing atm.

What changes is that you are immortal, you have more brain power to do the things humans can't due to their own biological limitations. The plan doesn't change you into some entirely new entity, it's literally just upgrading your body to superhuman-godly level like the heroic spirits. Literally nothing else changed, other than the fact that now you can either use your newfound brain power and immortality to do more things. In fact, throughout history and even now, the pursuit for longer lifespan and improving the brain power of humans are still hot topic in medical researches across the world. Kirshtaria basically wants to give it for free. I personally would not reject free lifespan and more brain power, I am that practical since it benefits me. But you are free to not like it. Doesn't mean people (and Nasu) are forcing you to like that idea.

I would accept it if and only if I can be assured that I would be able to recognize myself as myself afterwards, and that should I be dissatisfied I could return to being as I was before. On the subject of medical research, I'll say that quality of life and quantity of life are two entirely different things.

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Bro you just told told someone to kill himself over fucking FGO. And it wasn't even because he rolled your waifu.

I retract that statement, then. I should have said that the only way to escape the problems that come with consciousness are to end consciousness but that it is healthier to simply accept them and work with them to the best of one's abilities.

[Nanaya]

Look how cute you can be once you evolve.

Spoiler:

[Lily Emilio]

On the subject of medical research, I'll say that quality of life and quantity of life are two entirely different things.

By creating more medicines and ways to tackle illnesses, you improve people's life AND also indirectly improve their lifespan by curing people from diseases that would kill them before their natural lifespan hits. In addition to that, the multiple attempts made to slow down, stop and even revert aging cells told me that humans want longevity and immortality. All medical fields of research on improving quality of life end up contributing to humans having extended lifespan. How you use that extended lifespan is up to you. You can either use your newfound 1000 years of lifespan to do various things to improve the world like keep researching more technology to help humans eventually leave Earth to space big dream big ambition. Or you can stay in a room on your computer making arguments over fictional stories on the internet.

[InsertNameHere]

If Kirschtaria's plan was successful, he posits that not only could "humans", in their transcendence, finally solve all their trivial human matters, but would eventually advance so far as to eventually help the rest of creation. What you posit is that you would reject that if you did not personally feel like it. Thus my saying that leaving the choices up to the people in the world and expecting them to just "come together and work it out" isn't feasible.

A very big "if" indeed, and not just because of what actually happened. By your logic, we and all the other Heroic Spirits should have celebrated Goetia for doing the exact same thing albeit via different methods. In fact, given what the humans to be uplifted were like (that is to say, those of his Lostbelt), I'm not sure they'd even know what they were supposed to do with their magical god powers- they've been dependent on the Machine Gods for so long that they're virtually unable to function in their absence. For all we know, they'd try to use their powers to just bring the Machine Gods back or make new ones to rule over them instead. It's not like anyone asked them if it was what they wanted.

There, what is effectively the simplified scenario is that a genie is telling you that you can help all of humanity and after that all other life and the planet, but it gets rejected because of individualistic considerations.

The end is commendable. The means are not, and if humanity (Or rather, humans. "Humanity" is just a concept, as I said- are you a concept?) is to be helped then it will not be the result of a benevolent dictator doing all the thinking for them because they can't be trusted to do the right thing. The Chinese Lostbelt already stands as a counterexample to that, even if you take Qin's unorthodox and ultimately self-serving definition of "human" into account.

Hell, even in Chaldea's case, they also have the matter of consideration that if they accept Kirschtaria's plan that means entirely giving up on the possibility of getting PHH back, which is a no-go. Actually, if you think about their scenario, they're fighting entirely for something that might not even be possible, and they have no idea how they will accomplish, but they do it anyway, which is what the story presents as being "right" in this case (more or less, at least), and in that sense I do think that there's somewhat of an in-story refutation of your (sidetracked) arguments about "this is possible in reality so I'll stick to that instead of something that isn't proven".

I on the other hand saw it as "humanity as it is in PHH is worth fighting for and the sacrifices you say have to be made for godhood are too great to justify it, no matter how great you say godhood will be". They fought Kirschtaria over who had the right to define what it means to be human, and they ultimately won and proved that humans didn't need to become gods to be trusted with their own future. It is much to my vexation that the second choice in his pre-battle dialog didn't use Goetia as an analog, since as I said he operated on the same logic of "humans can't be trusted with their own future so I shall decide it for them whether they agree with it or not".

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By creating more medicines and ways to tackle illnesses, you improve people's life AND also indirectly improve their lifespan by curing people from diseases that would kill them before their natural lifespan hits. In addition to that, the multiple attempts made to slow down, stop and even revert aging cells told me that humans want longevity and immortality. All medical fields of research on improving quality of life end up contributing to humans having extended lifespan. How you use that extended lifespan is up to you. You can either use your newfound 1000 years of lifespan to do various things to improve the world like keep researching more technology to help humans eventually leave Earth to space big dream big ambition. Or you can stay in a room on your computer making arguments over fictional stories on the internet.

Now if only those medicines weren't so expensive that only the rich and powerful who are causing most of the problems in question could ever hope to afford them (and incidentally the fact that they're the ones pushing hardest for leaving Earth makes me feel like they're just looking to pass the buck to everyone else like they always do because there's no way they'd ever allow the commoners to join them save as indentured servants if not actual slaves).

And ask yourself a question: do you really think you could go for 1000 years without feeling like you've exhausted all that life has to offer you partway through? Or that living longer alone is enough to ensure happiness? If what matters isn't the length of your life so much as what you do with it, dragging it out only goes to show how terrified we are of both dying and of living our lives to the fullest in the time we do have.

[Nanaya]

And ask yourself a question: do you really think you could go for 1000 years without feeling like you've exhausted all that life has to offer you partway through? If what matters isn't the length of your life so much as what you do with it, dragging it out only goes to show how terrified we are of both dying and of living our lives to the fullest in the time we do have.

No Diff.

Spoiler:

[Castellan]

It is much to my vexation that the second choice in his pre-battle dialog didn't use Goetia as an analog, since as I said he operated on the same logic of "humans can't be trusted with their own future so I shall decide it for them whether they agree with it or not".

At the potential risk of making this discussion even more terminally Online than it already is, literally the point of the boss fight is that Kirschtaria is trying to test the resolve of the "old" humanity against his vision. The whole reason he's deeply disappointed after facing you down in Atlantis is because he didn't get what he wanted, a chance to have a fair fight against someone he considers an equal with the fate of human development on the line.

[Lily Emilio]

And ask yourself a question: do you really think you could go for 1000 years without feeling like you've exhausted all that life has to offer you partway through? If what matters isn't the length of your life so much as what you do with it, dragging it out only goes to show how terrified we are of both dying and of living our lives to the fullest in the time we do have.

I already answered your question in my prev reply. You can use that time to do endless things that a creative mind can do, or you can waste it by doing dumb shits over and over again and feel like you want to end your miserable life. It is up to each individuals. I already don't bother with what I would feel next year or in 10 years. I wouldn't think about what will happen if I live till year 3022 now lol.

Also you were literally just saying how Nasu has been feeling about immortality and value of a short but beautiful lifespan. So idk why you even thought Nasu was supporting Kirschtaria's views in the first place.

[Nanaya]

Reminder that Nasu started off TM with Shiki Tohno. The beauty of living life to the fullest despite the uncertainty of whether they'll see the next sunrise the character. You don't gotta be some grand hero or get wrapped up in the fate of the species. It's fine to just enjoy the little things and focus on those you love and yourself.

[InsertNameHere]

At the potential risk of making this discussion even more terminally Online than it already is, literally the point of the boss fight is that Kirschtaria is trying to test the resolve of the "old" humanity against his vision. The whole reason he's deeply disappointed after facing you down in Atlantis is because he didn't get what he wanted, a chance to have a fair fight against someone he considers an equal with the fate of human development on the line.

And whose fault was it that it wasn't a fair fight? Certainly not ours.

[Castellan]

And whose fault was it that it wasn't a fair fight? Certainly not ours.

Nothing, materially, has changed between your fight in Atlantis and your fight in Olympus. The only thing that has changed is the protagonist's state of mind. Atlantis is an existential low point, Olympus is a high point. The Black Barrel isn't a factor in the rematch and Kirschtaria is no weaker facing you in Olympus than he was in Atlantis. Atlantis is an unfair fight because you've hit rock bottom, Olympus is a fair fight because you're determined to push through and Kirschtaria isn't as overwhelmingly powerful as he seems at first glance.

This is literally part of the text.

Like, come on, this has gone beyond just different textual interpretations and right into poor reading comprehension.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

And ask yourself a question: do you really think you could go for 1000 years without feeling like you've exhausted all that life has to offer you partway through? Or that living longer alone is enough to ensure happiness? If what matters isn't the length of your life so much as what you do with it, dragging it out only goes to show how terrified we are of both dying and of living our lives to the fullest in the time we do have.

Pretty sure each person would answer differently to those. It's up to their respective preferences.

[InsertNameHere]

Nothing, materially, has changed between your fight in Atlantis and your fight in Olympus. The only thing that has changed is the protagonist's state of mind. Atlantis is an existential low point, Olympus is a high point. The Black Barrel isn't a factor in the rematch and Kirschtaria is no weaker facing you in Olympus than he was in Atlantis. Atlantis is an unfair fight because you've hit rock bottom, Olympus is a fair fight because you're determined to push through and Kirschtaria isn't as overwhelmingly powerful as he seems at first glance.

This is literally part of the text.

Like, come on, this has gone beyond just different textual interpretations and right into poor reading comprehension.

I will admit I had neglected Guda's state of mind as being factor, but on the other hand you also have to remember that Mash also had the Athena Klironomia empowering her on top of the Black Barrel and the Tree had already begun uplifting Guda and everyone else. Kirschtaria might not have been weaker, but to say that nothing materially has changed is an equal mistake- it is only in Olympus that the conditions are set for the playing field to be level in the first place.

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Pretty sure each person would answer differently to those. It's up to their respective preferences.

Yes, but imagining it happening and actually having it happen are very different. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

[Gehennahem]

Kirschtaria's idea is actually very similar to Taoist attempts tbh. He wants to give human a body of superior power, lifespan and potential. Taoist practitioners aimed to become immortal, flawless Xians, leaving behind mortal problems, as a collective society of transcended beings. Pretty much his reasoning isn't that far off from existing ideas. You either "worship a god or gods to hope for their guidance and maybe going to Heaven" or "you attain the same level of enlightenment as the gods to escape the mortal limitations". Kirshtaria's idea is unironically very human, he even admitted himself that he is not excluded from making mistakes. It's just that he believed there is no way humans at this point can do what he thought to be a better world and he went for it. Maybe he himself, just like he said, also made a wrong decision, but he will try it anyways.

Nasu doesn't try to make you agree with him, nor trying to say he is right, dude just wrote a story about a guy wanting to turn humans into gods because he thought that would be the solution to all issues. Idk why readers keep trying to imagine Nasu drilling ideas into their head and make them accept it. If anything, Kirschtaria's plan would be most appealing to Taoists and Buddhists, who doesn't actually need convincing in the first place because they are literally aiming to attain the similar thing Kirschtaria want humans to attain.

If you want me to be honest, I feel that's a modern day issue with readers who feel that writers just cannot write a story or even say something without influencing people to agree with their POV or to prove something anymore.
And those new readers now believe that Kinoko Nasu or Sakurai or Hisagihide now have something to say and people have to listen to them... when they have nothing to say, they just thought of something they found intriguing and just want people to THINK on it.

It's like that art is completely lost that instead of being told what to do, people don't understand that some writers just want you to either listen to a good story or stew on a good point, not to convince you but to make you think outside of the box.

As people have later stated, Kirschtaria was primarily HOPING this would fix the overall issues with Humanity and believed it with such conviction that it would happen, Holmes uses a decent counter-argument and Kirschtaria gives no real response past "Maybe but I hope it works through anyway" and Holmes knows it's a lost cause to argue further and that's it. Holmes didn't give up because Kirschtaria made a good point, it's just that Kirschtaria already made up his mind and that's that.
It's there to make you think that maybe Kirschtaria has a good point and to be frank? He does have one as Pepe and Kadoc agree that Kirschtaria's plans may be best for Humanity at large, even when Beryl up and kills Kirschtaria, it's not meant to be "Oh see? Kirschtaria's plan would never work" because that wasn't the point of that scene, Beryl killing Kirschtaria is completely shown through the reason he did so:

He wanted to kill people for the hell of it and having the vast intelligence to make it moot would be anathema to HIM. It's not a shut down by Nasu, it's fully showing that Beryl never made a good point, he's a monster who WANTS to be a monster, the absolute worst of Humanity. Like I cannot understand how people think that's supposed to be what Nasu or any other writer somehow think that's what the answer to Kirschtaria is supposed to be from their perspective.

[Kirishima]

Going with a hot take on this one, but I think the intended point of it is we can't fully ever know if it's the best choice or not, it's not inherently wrong to deny his plan or to support it, it's just something to think about.

Yeah groundbreaking I know.