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Thread: Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

  1. #75661
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle Arete's Avatar
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    I get the impression that the border of the human zone is the heliosphere, which Voyager left in 2012. It makes sense that since the sun is strongly tied to the world just like the moon, that it's boundaries would be important. It would also indicate that if the other planets have their own pruning system and branching timelines that their borders are the heliosphere as well.

    Branch timelines are obviously something that other planets have given how the Moon Cell can just casually destroy all timelines for a world. It's a little weird though how CM didn't seem to be aware of them given how he was surprised by the second magic, which is effectively the multiple timelines. It makes me wonder how Zelretch would react if Goetia or FELE Twice's plans had succeeded and there were only one timeline left. Would that effectively destroy the second magic, or would new timelines just start popping up?

  2. #75662
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
    I'd take that as a meta reference or her being able to view different universes like Fabro rather than them being roomies given how in Sabers ending they clearly don't know each other and her homefield line to her. Being outside of space-time or a universe doesn't mean something in necessarily outside of all universes in the sense that there is only one iteration.
    Problem with this is that AE (from Melty Blood) was woken up by little Olga turning simulations into real worlds in the Extra verse, which should be a different set of universes. To me that tells me even different universes are somewhat connected to one another, and there should only be one brain among all universes. Otherwise that would mean we can have Goetia/Kiara as the planet itself in one verse and AE in another and they can both sense what the other is doing which is weird.
    We know even characters in a lower hierarchy can interact with parallel worlds like individual demon gods like Zepar forming a link between CCC Kiara and FGO Kiara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arete View Post
    Branch timelines are obviously something that other planets have given how the Moon Cell can just casually destroy all timelines for a world. It's a little weird though how CM didn't seem to be aware of them given how he was surprised by the second magic, which is effectively the multiple timelines. It makes me wonder how Zelretch would react if Goetia or FELE Twice's plans had succeeded and there were only one timeline left. Would that effectively destroy the second magic, or would new timelines just start popping up?
    I don't think other planets even have parallel worlds, pruning and any of those concepts. It seems to be a feature of intelligent life and as far as we can tell other planets in the solar system don't really have intelligent life.
    The Moon Cell is different in that's a supercomputer created by an intelligent civilization that took control over Earth's concepts and it's currently in it's management.
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  3. #75663
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Nanaya's Avatar
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    I don't see why different universes being able to interact would be an issue. Gotta have crossovers. Anyway I doubt there is only one Arc to rule them all and some worlds probably don't even have an active brain.

  4. #75664
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    I don't think other planets even have parallel worlds, pruning and any of those concepts. It seems to be a feature of intelligent life and as far as we can tell other planets in the solar system don't really have intelligent life.
    Quote Originally Posted by TM Manuscript
    The Second Magic concerns the attestation and application of parallel worlds.
    Attestation. Parallel worlds weren't real in Earth either until Zelretch invented then.

    Quote Originally Posted by TM Manuscript
    By making it possible to travel to parallel worlds, he proved that there is still room for the world to develop in alternate ways.
    Thanks to this, the world’s lifespan has been extended. Even if our history fails, and we destroy ourselves, there might still be others of us out there—this concept granted hope to the planet, which had been in the process of losing its dreams.
    Zelretch is even credited with single-handedly sparing the planet from an early death, which should tell you parallel worlds is not a concept that occurs naturally to planets, having sapient life or otherwise.

  5. #75665
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    I see, that's pretty cool. So that means it's even more unlikely the concept can be applied to planets other than Earth.
    Although that makes me wonder how is it there seems to be parallel worlds before Zelretch came up with the Second Magic. Like Extraverse is defined by the Moon Cell existing in the solar system since Earth was formed, but not in any other universe. As well as the Lost Belts.
    Did they retroactively pop into existence when the Second became a thing?
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  6. #75666
    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Attestation. Parallel worlds weren't real in Earth either until Zelretch invented then.



    Zelretch is even credited with single-handedly sparing the planet from an early death, which should tell you parallel worlds is not a concept that occurs naturally to planets, having sapient life or otherwise.
    Remember, the five magics are a graph (at least if you don't think about it too hard).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    I see, that's pretty cool. So that means it's even more unlikely the concept can be applied to planets other than Earth.
    Although that makes me wonder how is it there seems to be parallel worlds before Zelretch came up with the Second Magic. Like Extraverse is defined by the Moon Cell existing in the solar system since Earth was formed, but not in any other universe. As well as the Lost Belts.
    Did they retroactively pop into existence when the Second became a thing?
    Consider how lostbelts work, and how the whole of the human texture will unravel if its pins are lifted.
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    Ugh cokesakto no no no
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    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
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    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  7. #75667
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle Delastogos's Avatar
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    So the Zelretch of different worlds just keep expanding the number of timelines and regulate them as well?

  8. #75668
    虚無の境:意識 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Attestation. Parallel worlds weren't real in Earth either until Zelretch invented then.

    Zelretch is even credited with single-handedly sparing the planet from an early death, which should tell you parallel worlds is not a concept that occurs naturally to planets, having sapient life or otherwise.
    I don't think that's what it said. It only said he found proof of parallel worlds existing and application of it. Recall how he defeated CM. He took magic energy from other timelines to stop the moon drop. If those parallel worlds aren't already there, he wouldn't be able to draw energy from them.

    The way I see it. Parallel worlds as a system has been around for a very long long time (even back when Sefar attacked, it has already been a thing, and Sefar attacking the Moon Cell destroyed 80% of Earth's alternate possibilities. But humans aren't aware of the system, not until Zelretch proved that it is an actual thing and coined the concept, putting it to use for humanity's sakes. This is when human elements began to influence it, and Alaya having a saying in its operation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    I see, that's pretty cool. So that means it's even more unlikely the concept can be applied to planets other than Earth.
    Although that makes me wonder how is it there seems to be parallel worlds before Zelretch came up with the Second Magic. Like Extraverse is defined by the Moon Cell existing in the solar system since Earth was formed, but not in any other universe. As well as the Lost Belts.
    Did they retroactively pop into existence when the Second became a thing?
    The confusion you and others had came from believing that pruning of parallel worlds means those worlds are just gone. The system has a meta reason to exist, to my understanding. Recall the explanation about the Observed Universe (OU) and the Archived Universe (AU) in CCC.

    The OU has first person viewpoint, basically you can only perceive one point of time at one moment. This means a human can only perceive the present, and thus the future is unknown to them and can be changed. This is pretty much very relevant to sorting out "possibilities we humans accept". And the pruning, quantum time locks...etc, are discussed with the context that it applies to the OU.

    The AU OTOH contains EVERYTHING, since the 3 dimensional axis is viewed like you print onto a flat surface like a piece of paper, thus you can see the past, present and future all at once. This has the advantage of being able to see all possible futures, not just those relevant, which means the AU has things that have been discarded from the OU. Moon Cell core has a AU structure since it simulates parallel worlds, and thus has records of every single possibilities.

    This means that events that are pruned from the OU can no longer be observed by human, as those are unnecessary to the growth of humanity, but can still be viewed in the AU. Think of those events as files you downloaded from the internet that you don't need anymore and deleted. You no longer have the files, but the internet keeps them. Beings with higher dimension viewpoints can gain access to the AU to view these "discarded" worlds like how Zepar was able to get the CCC event back despite it being already "deleted", and it is pretty much where you are most likely able to find the data of Lostbelts.

    So take this example: you have a timeline where the Earth is destroyed by some crazy aliens. That timeline is "pruned" in the sense that it is no longer relevant to human history, and Alaya (as part of "the world") "prunes" it from the OU. But what really happened is that they are moved out of the OU into the AU, thus in the perspective of those in the OU that timeline is deleted, never existed, or in other words "pruned" from human history. Whatever happened after the aliens destroyed Earth in that timeline will be recorded in the AU, not the OU. So it's not that Alaya can delete timelines and affecting other planets. It's "Alaya ignoring timelines that are irrelevant to human history by removing them from the OU that concerns humanity". Those timelines that are not relevant to humanity survival will then no longer receive energy from the OU, which is probably solar system size, with concerns related to the danger of it being exploded.

  9. #75669
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle sentence's Avatar
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    not until Zelretch proved that it is an actual thing and coined the concept, putting it to use for humanity's sakes. This is when human elements began to influence it, and Alaya having a saying in its operation.
    It was always operated by humanity and pruned timelines were always based on humanity's death.
    LB6 was pruned because humanity died, it did happen almost after Seraph's arrival.
    Same goes for LB5 which was pruned because humanity stopped to progress, long before Zelretch was ever born.

  10. #75670
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sentence View Post
    It was always operated by humanity and pruned timelines were always based on humanity's death.
    LB6 was pruned because humanity died, it did happen almost after Seraph's arrival.
    Same goes for LB5 which was pruned because humanity stopped to progress, long before Zelretch was ever born.

    SE.RA.PH? Isn't that a collection of Reality Marbles generated by Moon Cell? When was it ever mentioned in LB6?


  11. #75671
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle InsertNameHsre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    SE.RA.PH? Isn't that a collection of Reality Marbles generated by Moon Cell? When was it ever mentioned in LB6?
    I think that was supposed to be Sefar.

  12. #75672
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsertNameHsre View Post
    I think that was supposed to be Sefar.
    Oh. Well that clears things up.


  13. #75673
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Seraph, Sephar. Anagrams.

  14. #75674
    Lie Like Vortigern Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Seraph, Sephar. Anagrams.
    Much to think about

  15. #75675
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    Is the "preservation" and continuation of pruned timelines in the AU really accurate though? I don't have CCC context but that seems to go directly against Archimedes' explanation of pruning in regards to energy preservation, and how quickly the solar system would run itself out if it tried to sustain every possibility.
    If they're still going on in a different level of existence, then pruning doesn't solve that problem at all

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also what would be the need of simulating the continuation of the LBs if they're already continued in the AU? That doesn't fit either

  16. #75676
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    I need to re-read CCC. It's been a while and I only read a translation on a blog. What I got from Lily's explanation is that the AU isn't part of the AoM texture, only the OU is. And the OU only involves the collective cognition of humanity. Meaning if say the DA destroyed humanity in one timeline and that world was pruned, the world of the DA will still go on in the AU but it would be dead from the perspective of humanity since as a pruned world the AoM texture isn't providing energy to it anymore.
    I think that's how it goes.
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  17. #75677
    虚無の境:意識 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinetree View Post
    Is the "preservation" and continuation of pruned timelines in the AU really accurate though? I don't have CCC context but that seems to go directly against Archimedes' explanation of pruning in regards to energy preservation, and how quickly the solar system would run itself out if it tried to sustain every possibility.
    If they're still going on in a different level of existence, then pruning doesn't solve that problem at all
    It actually does not go against any of what he said. The concerns about having energy and space to sustain those "unwanted" timelines is regarding "such energy that could sustain these timelines does not exist in this dimension". He doesn't specify what he meant by "this dimension", but since the whole thing was regarding the OU, we can assume that he is talking about the OU (also know as the solar system texture). It makes perfect sense that "this dimension" cannot hold an infinite number of alt timelines, since its size remains the same unless humans start to explore new areas of the vast universe beyond the solar system. The actual universe OTOH, can just keep expanding, perhaps until the heat death of itself. So if the AU is on another dimension (which it is) and its purpose is to record all possibilities than just a few, then it should have enough space for all. Keep in mind that we have no info on how things are going on in the AU, so this is something of a guess, but the fact that it contains events that are deleted from the OU is a key difference between the two universes.

    Also what would be the need of simulating the continuation of the LBs if they're already continued in the AU? That doesn't fit either
    It's pretty obvious tho. When you drag something out of the AU that is already considered "dead" in the OU, and try to plant them onto a texture belongs to the OU, it just cannot register. So you have to simulate the long period between when the event is pruned to the present year like how Ophelia speculated, then output it onto the Earth's surface. In the perspective of the OU, the Lostbelts history stopped at around the time they are pruned, so you need to simulate the gap between the pruned moment to the present to "prove" its existence.

    But as we all learnt, Odin knew about all this LB shenanigans already during part 1, and even managed to send CasCu straight into LB6. Why? Because his eyes are of the higher dimensional view (referred to as the view of god by Rin in CCC), he can see not only compiled event that are in the OU, but also pruned events recorded in the AU, so taking info or sending info to such timelines are within his powers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    I need to re-read CCC. It's been a while and I only read a translation on a blog. What I got from Lily's explanation is that the AU isn't part of the AoM texture, only the OU is. And the OU only involves the collective cognition of humanity. Meaning if say the DA destroyed humanity in one timeline and that world was pruned, the world of the DA will still go on in the AU but it would be dead from the perspective of humanity since as a pruned world the AoM texture isn't providing energy to it anymore.
    I think that's how it goes.
    Something like that yeah. But keep in mind that we know nothing of how managing the timelines actually work in the AU cuz by far it is treated like this secret library of worlds that some entities can pull info from. But just regarding the question about pruning, then it is only a thing to manage the OU.

  18. #75678
    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    The way I see it. Parallel worlds as a system has been around for a very long long time (even back when Sefar attacked, it has already been a thing, and Sefar attacking the Moon Cell destroyed 80% of Earth's alternate possibilities. But humans aren't aware of the system, not until Zelretch proved that it is an actual thing and coined the concept, putting it to use for humanity's sakes. This is when human elements began to influence it, and Alaya having a saying in its operation.
    While "attestation" doesn't at all inherently imply an "invention", but just a "proof" (just like how if you attested that santa claus exists now, that doesn't necessarily mean he magically started existing at the same time, just that you couldn't prove it was really him before that), a big reason of those mats that make this take difficult to reconcile is the fact that Zelretch via the second magic's attestation of parallel worlds saved the world from a slow end. If they always existed, just not in the purview of mankind (such as in the AU) then there wouldn't be that end. That only works if you consider that it's supposed to perhaps mean the "end of mankind" but that's not what was said. It talks about history failing, but also about the "world" and the planet itself.

    To me, it also lines up well with a certain twitter crack on how the true magics relate to concept of entropy (or heat quantity, rather).
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  19. #75679
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Isn' the heat thing from Mahoyo? Something about Aoko's action caused universe's heat being transferred to the future could cause unbalance for its indefinite growth, and making a heat death scenario possible. So before that, the universe was safe from that dead end?

    So Zelretch's Magic caused the singular timeline to start branching out, with the first divide became the origin of Fate and Tsuki routes with Zelretch vs CM as the starting point, and the branches kept multiplying from then on? If so, that's really fascinating.

    I'm guessing the world wasn't aware of that potential and so resigned to its fate, but Zelretch's feat proved otherwise thus the world began to utilize the parallel timelines to prolong its lifespan.


  20. #75680
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    Isn' the heat thing from Mahoyo? Something about Aoko's action caused universe's heat being transferred to the future could cause unbalance for its indefinite growth, and making a heat death scenario possible. So before that, the universe was safe from that dead end?
    You have to sort of understand this in the scenario it's presented and the world it is a part off.
    Quote Originally Posted by MBBAN
    我々が進化をすれば、この宇宙の寿命が縮むのだよ
    When we evolve, the universe's lifespan shrinks.
    Ultimately, this is what Nasu's thoughts surrounding humanity's progress is about. It's about reaching the end of the universe. If, like the Atlas Institute, you want to delay the end for as long as possible, you'd rather reject this kind of 'consumption' that Aoko's Magic represents, because it advances progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by fumei
    To me, it also lines up well with a certain twitter crack on how the true magics relate to concept of entropy (or heat quantity, rather).
    I do find it interesting how much the physical laws of thermodynamics seem to be rooted in his thinking. Seeing the world as a system of potential change instead of something 'that just is' is very much in line with this. That said, the Magics are clearly more about human progress than anything else.
    Last edited by Petrikow; December 1st, 2022 at 08:34 PM.

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