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Thread: Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

  1. #75441
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle sentence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    The issue here is that your analogy falls flat because that's not at all what was going to happen. The whole point of becoming "gods" is to transcend humanity, not just to give humans a boost. That step is to eliminate the intrinsic necessities that come with being human and a living being, while the heightened intelligence (and remember, though the spotlight says he gives one rank higher, the story seemed pretty clear that this intelligence would far surpass anything here now) would serve to eliminate all other human faults.

    Saying we would just have the bad guys be smarter and stronger is completely missing the point of what he was doing.
    Yeah, and Kirschtaria was right.
    But some people would not accept unless Nasu says it loud.

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    Latest From Lostbelt story is such a mess.

    So mats shows that Castoria just died and was recorded as Servant to protect the World, now this story shows her talking to herself as Servant (?) and having some weird conversation like she'll fight forever if she will take the sword, like what?
    Did they try to portray being recorded as Servant this way?

  2. #75442
    I think the strongest point in favor of Wodime's idea is how Beryl reacts to it. Having Beryl of all people going against something is the perfect way to know there is some merit there.

  3. #75443
    Yeah, the way that Beryl’s the only Crypter against it while Pepe (in From Lostbelt) and Kadoc (in Traum) both say they wouldn’t have a problem with it is a good point.

  4. #75444
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Mystery -> arcane is still the best change, not only because it frees me from looking for alternatives for the regular word "mystery" (which Nasu loves to use), but also because I no longer have to flip the grammar backward in 300 ways to accommodate how capital m Mystery is inflexibly a noun while 神秘 keeps being thrown around as a noun, adjective, adverb, or whatever the sentence flow sees fit. Translating Type-Moon has never been this comfortable.
    Tbh its like the only change I disagree with but that's because why would you want to distance things from the Greek basis that everything is well, based on? in this setting.

  5. #75445
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Mysterion is indeed a Greek word but the source text represents the concept most often through a Japanese word (shinpi) of identically graphed Chinese origin (shenmi) with rare instances of it being rendered with an English (occult) or French word (mystere). The multiculturalism of the setting is definitely important and I can agree it’s a big factor weighting in Mystery’s favor, but unlike oni or xian that are also regional concepts in-universe, arcane is universal to the setting. I don’t know if the inconsistent use of ruby text in different languages is an intentional way of representing that, but it’s a neat one regardless.

    Anyways here are the factors I consider, in order of priority. Might be missing some because it’s past 2 AM but hopefully this is comprehensive enough.
    - Author’s furigana: TM is always sending mixed messages with this one as mentioned above, so not considered here.
    - Etymology: Technically Chinese but the concept is discussed in-universe as Greek and applied to the whole planet, so there’s no easy answer here either.
    - Recognizability: Mystery has the age advantage and Mystics has the officiality advantage. Arcane is young as a TM term, but it comes from A Piece of Blue Glass Moon, which is the franchise’s most advisable entry point at the moment, so Mystery’s advantage means less than Mystics’.
    - Naturality/usage frequency: 神秘 is not a word that you’ll generally see in everyday conversation unless you like discussing the spirituality of nature, but it’s a decently common word in fantasy. That’s where arcane gains a huge edge over Mystery and occult. Its usage matches practically 1:1 with 神秘. Needless to say, this is where we cross Mystére off the candidate list.
    - Least misleading synonyms: Either arcane or occult. Also technically Mystére, since is not an English word. Mystery is immediately off the race due to multiple past instances of people struggling to understand the concept because of the name. Aniplex Mystics is also here because its uses the word meaning “practitioners” to mean “practice”.
    - Grammatical flexibility: Honestly, this one means nothing compared to rest and I’m only including it on the list because it’s a thing I praised in the previous post and it would be weird to leave it unaddressed. It’s not a factor that matters because Japanese and English sentence structures are so different that a lot will get shuffled around either way. Also this is a thing I only noticed after I started using arcane in practice rather a factor that weighted in the decision. 神秘 is a weird word that originated as a verb but is nowadays used as pretty much anything. Its good to have something as easily adaptable. Mystery has adjective forms in “mysterious“ and whatnot but its misleading synonyms make it be a necessarily capitalized word, which adds rigidity to term. Freely adapting that feels off. Mystics is a plural noun made singular to serve as lore term and I honestly don’t know how to handle this. That’s one complicated factor that made me go back on my short-lived early 2020 switch from Mystery to Mystics. Mystére is French so I also don’t know how to touch that. Occult is probably the closest to 神秘 in how it serves as verb, noun, and adjective. It’s also not capitalized, allowing natural adaptations when needed. If this was the number 1 factor, occult have easily been my choice. And then arcane is an lowercase adjective that is easy and natural to adapt to other forms (singular noun arcanum, plural noun arcana, uncountable noun arcanity, adverb arcanely, etc)

  6. #75446
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle InsertNameHsre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Is that due to lacking the state of being gods or some other circumstance?

    I think the argue is circling itself because fundamentally do we agree with the story that it may be a good idea, or we use inferences based on irl and other things to make our judgement
    The latter. For sure. It may be Nasu's story, but he can't stop us from realizing things he might not have thought about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yokushi View Post
    I think the strongest point in favor of Wodime's idea is how Beryl reacts to it. Having Beryl of all people going against something is the perfect way to know there is some merit there.
    If you want my opinion that's more of Nasu being unwilling to entertain a real counterargument to his own obsession with transhumanism combined with his unwillingness to give Guda any ideals of their own beyond "I don't want to die".

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    Quote Originally Posted by sentence View Post
    Yeah, and Kirschtaria was right.
    But some people would not accept unless Nasu says it loud.
    I'm still not accepting "because Nasu said so" as an argument in favor of it because an appeal to authority (even if it's the authority of an author, not like that's worth much) does not a good argument make. I judge his plan based on its merits, and they are not promising.
    Last edited by InsertNameHsre; October 8th, 2022 at 02:46 AM.

  7. #75447
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    I've never read Nasu as being in favor of Kirschtaria's plan. That seems like a strange misread. There's a reason he's the villain, even if a noble one.

  8. #75448
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle InsertNameHsre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    I've never read Nasu as being in favor of Kirschtaria's plan. That seems like a strange misread. There's a reason he's the villain, even if a noble one.
    I'd have thought that if that was the case he'd provide some actual counterarguments to it, in the same way that he did with the Hero of Justice ideal in FSN. But for whatever reason this particular ideal goes completely unquestioned. Given all his other works suggesting that such a transcendence is both possible and desirable (both of which are heavily debatable), I suspect he has a horse in this race, so to speak.

    And just to make things 100% clear, I don't see Kirschtaria as evil. He's just a blatant, unadulterated fool.
    Last edited by InsertNameHsre; October 8th, 2022 at 02:58 AM.

  9. #75449
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Because this plotline isn't resolved.

    Marisbury and Kirschtaria have the same ultimate goal, and we've yet to find out the true extent of Marisbury's deal. Once that happens, (you) will deny it. That said, the answer is already out there if you read like any of his other works.

  10. #75450
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle sentence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilgrave View Post
    Yeah, the way that Beryl’s the only Crypter against it while Pepe (in From Lostbelt) and Kadoc (in Traum) both say they wouldn’t have a problem with it is a good point.
    This too.

  11. #75451
    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    The funniest thing to me about the counterarguments that get brought up for this discussion every time is that the whole point is that according to Kirschtaria, humans, in their physical and mental limitations cannot grasp the path necessary, in part because their intelligence is lacking. And then, (you), an inherently normal person of normal human intellect, just goes: "no but see, I don't agree". Whether it really was the correct path (which we'll probably never know explicitly per se, but Nasu's other works sort of gives us the answer already), the fact of the matter is that (you) just keep proving Kirschtaria's point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
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    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
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    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  12. #75452
    A writer can create any scenario and contrive reasonings for it.

    Fumei this is a story, we are real people. this was presumably written by a real person. The crux is that inserthnamehere is arguing based on presumably IRL and life, while your basically saying there cant be a debate because nasu says so.

    So, whats your opinion, in universe and based on IRL circumstances fumei.

  13. #75453
    The Long-Forgotten Sight Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    Do you believe that you can comprehend God in His entirety?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  14. #75454
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle InsertNameHsre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    A writer can create any scenario and contrive reasonings for it.

    Fumei this is a story, we are real people. this was presumably written by a real person. The crux is that inserthnamehere is arguing based on presumably IRL and life, while your basically saying there cant be a debate because nasu says so.

    So, whats your opinion, in universe and based on IRL circumstances fumei.
    Indeed. What Nasu thinks is irrelevant to me because he can just shut down any dissent however he pleases without having to genuinely consider the counterarguments (although I for one feel like the story could have been significantly improved if he did consider them instead of uncritically depicting Kirschtaria's views as being purely good. I on the other hand don't take kindly to having such discussion shut down simply due to authorial fiat and things like what fumei says just convince me even more that he doesn't want to engage it critically.

    I've already set forth my reasoning in universe. That is, Kirschtaria himself is just as clueless as anyone else about what humanity's path should be and is staking all of humanity on a plan that may very well blow up in his face, notwithstanding the arrogance of assuming that anyone ought to be in a position to impose anything on humanity as a whole, and the actions of the machine gods should be proof enough that intelligence and wisdom are not enough for virtue. They're just tools, and tools can be used for both good and evil in equal measure.

    Out of universe, the latter argument still applies but I can then also point out the countless instances of humans living in the ideal way he believes is impossible for us, which many historians now think is actually the way we lived for the thousands of years before our recorded history. Thus we can have his world where everyone works together without having to sacrifice any of the things that make us human, it just requires identifying the social systems that cause our problems, working to undermine and eventually eliminate them, and creating new ones to take their place that can keep things from going wrong again.

    I have ideas on how to do this as well as ways that they could viably be put into practice (and indeed many of them have been implemented in one form or another), but I seriously doubt that this is the best place to talk about radical politics. Even if it was, I am not quite well-versed enough in the theory behind it to adequately discuss it (although I suppose I could point people in the direction of literature which explains it far batter than I could).

    Additionally, I find that with such heady ideals the means prefigures the end- an "ascension" that has to be imposed upon people from above without ever allowing them a say in the matter is little more than a mass violation of the existence of everyone who never wanted that kind of faux-divinity and would spend the whole of their existence after that "ascension" trying to get rid of it. If such a thing is even possible (and I highly doubt that it is), it must be a choice taken freely and with full knowledge of the consequences (which incidentally Kirschtaria couldn't possibly know about- all he had there was his faith- which I define in this context as "a willing belief in the unbelievable without proof").

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    Do you believe that you can comprehend God in His entirety?
    How can anyone comprehend something that hasn't even been defined? You may as well ask if I can comprehend (insert nonsense word that looks like a cat ran across my keyboard here).
    Last edited by InsertNameHsre; October 9th, 2022 at 02:30 AM.

  15. #75455
    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    A writer can create any scenario and contrive reasonings for it.

    Fumei this is a story, we are real people. this was presumably written by a real person. The crux is that inserthnamehere is arguing based on presumably IRL and life, while your basically saying there cant be a debate because nasu says so.
    Quote Originally Posted by InsertNameHsre View Post
    Indeed. What Nasu thinks is irrelevant to me because he can just shut down any dissent however he pleases without having to genuinely consider the counterarguments (although I for one feel like the story could have been significantly improved if he did consider them instead of uncritically depicting Kirschtaria's views as being purely good. I on the other hand don't take kindly to having such discussion shut down simply due to authorial fiat and things like what fumei says just convince me even more that he doesn't want to engage it critically.
    No, it is not the case that there cannot be a discussion or critique of it because "Nasu said so" (though I would argue that some people here desperately need to stop reading Nasu stories as a means of him forcing his personal believes on the reader, and more like actual stories). I argue it is the case that this critique of the plan is fundamentally wrong because of what the story says about people. The idea in the story is that humankind, as they exist now and presumably forevermore, cannot attain this path being sought. It requires a completely higher level of existence to do so, both physically and intellectually; a level which a normal, or even abnormal, person could never hope to attain. Thus, when you argue against it based on what you "perceive right now", it's of little consequence because you're trying to apply those same things to something akin to a proper god. But, for the sake of you not feeling like I'm clinging to "author fiat", I'll meet your arguments.

    I've already set forth my reasoning in universe. That is, Kirschtaria himself is just as clueless as anyone else about what humanity's path should be and is staking all of humanity on a plan that may very well blow up in his face, notwithstanding the arrogance of assuming that anyone ought to be in a position to impose anything on humanity as a whole, and the actions of the machine gods should be proof enough that intelligence and wisdom are not enough for virtue. They're just tools, and tools can be used for both good and evil in equal measure.
    The Olympians are fundamentally tools created for the purpose of preserving and cultivating their own kind. Comparing their intelligence and wisdom to this case feels disingenuous, because theirs is one meant to be used in their position as tools. They were never made to transcend their own "mortal" limitations, nor break free of the accursed cycle of consciousness; they were just made to do what it is they sought to do (and in the end, even Zeus, who cared for mankind in his own way, stuck to that). Kirschtaria's plan is not equivalent to the creation of the Olympians.

    Out of universe, the latter argument still applies but I can then also point out the countless instances of humans living in the ideal way he believes is impossible for us, which many historians now think is actually the way we lived for the thousands of years before our recorded history. Thus we can have his world where everyone works together without having to sacrifice any of the things that make us human, it just requires identifying the social systems that cause our problems, working to undermine and eventually eliminate them, and creating new ones to take their place that can keep things from going wrong again.

    I have ideas on how to do this as well as ways that they could viably be put into practice (and indeed many of them have been implemented in one form or another), but I seriously doubt that this is the best place to talk about radical politics. Even if it was, I am not quite well-versed enough in the theory behind it to adequately discuss it (although I suppose I could point people in the direction of literature which explains it far batter than I could).


    Additionally, I find that with such heady ideals the means prefigures the end- an "ascension" that has to be imposed upon people from above without ever allowing them a say in the matter is little more than a mass violation of the existence of everyone who never wanted that kind of faux-divinity and would spend the whole of their existence after that "ascension" trying to get rid of it. If such a thing is even possible (and I highly doubt that it is), it must be a choice taken freely and with full knowledge of the consequences (which incidentally Kirschtaria couldn't possibly know about- all he had there was his faith- which I define in this context as "a willing belief in the unbelievable without proof").

    - - - Updated - - -

    How can anyone comprehend something that hasn't even been defined? You may as well ask if I can comprehend (insert nonsense word that looks like a cat ran across my keyboard here).
    And this is where I believe your arguments fall in their entirety. You are, fundamentally, arguing about societal structures and inherently human concepts and trying to apply those to a state of godhood, saying "see, this human concept isn't compatible with gods, thus it doesn't work". It is fallacious from the outset, because the whole entire point is that we transcend any such concepts. You say that "utopias" like these have already existed in some capacity throughout history, and imply that they would have continued to do so if we could just "identity the social systems that cause our problems, working to undermine and eventually eliminate them", but stop to think about why this has never, throughout the hundreds of thousands of years that humans have existed, ever even come close to happening, even in the most "utopian" collectives in ancient history. Could it be because there is inherently something about humans that create these issues and systems; something we cannot just "identify and eliminate" because it is so built into our very being that as long as we are "just human", it's a shackle we cannot escape from? In that case, the application of a godlike existence and intelligence very much seems a surefire way to at least begin to work towards the very thing you want, since it should logically be impossible without it.

    Because—and here I'm tying it back to byegod's question about what I believe based on real life—I really do believe that mankind is at their very core flawed in a way that would never allow a world like you envision to exist, as long as we remain human. I don't know exactly what "political reforms" you have in mind, nor do I really care, but in a sense it does remind me of the advocates of anprim movements, in their case arguing that it's society or civilization which is the root cause of these issues and "systems", as you put it, not humans themselves. In anprim's case, the idea then is that we just go back far enough in time and live like they used to back then, and we achieve a true utopia. Just as I don't believe that your "radical political systems" would succeed, regardless of what they are, I believe the aforementioned ideas are inherently wrong. I don't believe these things are the root cause of negativity, I believe humans are, or more specifically, consciousness (which, in most aspects, is what really makes us "human"). I well and truly believe that "[humanity was] a breach in the very unity of life, a biological paradox, an abomination, an absurdity, an exaggeration of disastrous nature. Life had overshot its target, blowing itself apart. A species had been armed too heavily—by spirit made almighty without, but equally a menace to its own well-being. Its weapons was like a sword without hilt or plate, a two-edged blade cleaving everything; but he who is to wield it must grasp the blade and turn one edge toward himself."

    How then, can any reform achieve what you are arguing for, if it doesn't fundamentally—physically and spiritually—change the very definition of what humankind is? This is what's being posited here. Arguments about any human societal or cultural constructs are moot. This is why humans "never make the right choice". We are born into it, and we are shackled by our own nature. We need to supersede that nature in order to achieve the world Kirschtaria seeks, and thus a magical ascent to godhood is the only logical path. At least, this is the case as presented by the story. Whether it would actually work once it has occurred (or whether Nasu himself even believes this to be the "right way" as it were) I think is entirely irrelevant to discuss, because any way you could discuss it is through a lens of humanity and human consciousness, the very thing that needs to be shed to comprehend the path required. That is why I say that the arguments are moot, not because "Nasu says so", but because, like Raff said, how could you comprehend something so transcended in its entirety? Arguing that you can seems to me a coping mechanism of the consciousness, arguing for its insistent self-safekeeping.

    And just to top it off with answering your second to last paragraph, about "forcing" this ascension on people and how it should be a "choice". Even if we completely ignore the whole aspect of consciousness mentioned above, you don't have to look much further than the last 3 years in the modern world. A great pandemic spanned the globe. If people could just work together and behave properly, it would result in minimal losses. But people chose not to. A massive climate crisis threatens to destroy the world as we know it. If people could just work together and behave properly, it could be counteracted. But people choose not to.
    It is as Kirschtaria says: mankind never makes the right decision. The idea that they would choose the best path because it really is the best path is just flat out wrong, based solely on a optimistic view rooted in the fact that "humanity has persevered this far", but ignoring the fact that such a thing cannot proceed unhindered. It will come to an end, and all of man will answer for the choices the species as a whole made, wrongly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
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    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
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    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  16. #75456
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle InsertNameHsre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    No, it is not the case that there cannot be a discussion or critique of it because "Nasu said so" (though I would argue that some people here desperately need to stop reading Nasu stories as a means of him forcing his personal believes on the reader, and more like actual stories). I argue it is the case that this critique of the plan is fundamentally wrong because of what the story says about people. The idea in the story is that humankind, as they exist now and presumably forevermore, cannot attain this path being sought. It requires a completely higher level of existence to do so, both physically and intellectually; a level which a normal, or even abnormal, person could never hope to attain. Thus, when you argue against it based on what you "perceive right now", it's of little consequence because you're trying to apply those same things to something akin to a proper god. But, for the sake of you not feeling like I'm clinging to "author fiat", I'll meet your arguments.


    The Olympians are fundamentally tools created for the purpose of preserving and cultivating their own kind. Comparing their intelligence and wisdom to this case feels disingenuous, because theirs is one meant to be used in their position as tools. They were never made to transcend their own "mortal" limitations, nor break free of the accursed cycle of consciousness; they were just made to do what it is they sought to do (and in the end, even Zeus, who cared for mankind in his own way, stuck to that). Kirschtaria's plan is not equivalent to the creation of the Olympians.


    And this is where I believe your arguments fall in their entirety. You are, fundamentally, arguing about societal structures and inherently human concepts and trying to apply those to a state of godhood, saying "see, this human concept isn't compatible with gods, thus it doesn't work". It is fallacious from the outset, because the whole entire point is that we transcend any such concepts. You say that "utopias" like these have already existed in some capacity throughout history, and imply that they would have continued to do so if we could just "identity the social systems that cause our problems, working to undermine and eventually eliminate them", but stop to think about why this has never, throughout the hundreds of thousands of years that humans have existed, ever even come close to happening, even in the most "utopian" collectives in ancient history. Could it be because there is inherently something about humans that create these issues and systems; something we cannot just "identify and eliminate" because it is so built into our very being that as long as we are "just human", it's a shackle we cannot escape from? In that case, the application of a godlike existence and intelligence very much seems a surefire way to at least begin to work towards the very thing you want, since it should logically be impossible without it.

    Because—and here I'm tying it back to byegod's question about what I believe based on real life—I really do believe that mankind is at their very core flawed in a way that would never allow a world like you envision to exist, as long as we remain human. I don't know exactly what "political reforms" you have in mind, nor do I really care, but in a sense it does remind me of the advocates of anprim movements, in their case arguing that it's society or civilization which is the root cause of these issues and "systems", as you put it, not humans themselves. In anprim's case, the idea then is that we just go back far enough in time and live like they used to back then, and we achieve a true utopia. Just as I don't believe that your "radical political systems" would succeed, regardless of what they are, I believe the aforementioned ideas are inherently wrong. I don't believe these things are the root cause of negativity, I believe humans are, or more specifically, consciousness (which, in most aspects, is what really makes us "human"). I well and truly believe that "[humanity was] a breach in the very unity of life, a biological paradox, an abomination, an absurdity, an exaggeration of disastrous nature. Life had overshot its target, blowing itself apart. A species had been armed too heavily—by spirit made almighty without, but equally a menace to its own well-being. Its weapons was like a sword without hilt or plate, a two-edged blade cleaving everything; but he who is to wield it must grasp the blade and turn one edge toward himself."

    How then, can any reform achieve what you are arguing for, if it doesn't fundamentally—physically and spiritually—change the very definition of what humankind is? This is what's being posited here. Arguments about any human societal or cultural constructs are moot. This is why humans "never make the right choice". We are born into it, and we are shackled by our own nature. We need to supersede that nature in order to achieve the world Kirschtaria seeks, and thus a magical ascent to godhood is the only logical path. At least, this is the case as presented by the story. Whether it would actually work once it has occurred (or whether Nasu himself even believes this to be the "right way" as it were) I think is entirely irrelevant to discuss, because any way you could discuss it is through a lens of humanity and human consciousness, the very thing that needs to be shed to comprehend the path required. That is why I say that the arguments are moot, not because "Nasu says so", but because, like Raff said, how could you comprehend something so transcended in its entirety? Arguing that you can seems to me a coping mechanism of the consciousness, arguing for its insistent self-safekeeping.

    And just to top it off with answering your second to last paragraph, about "forcing" this ascension on people and how it should be a "choice". Even if we completely ignore the whole aspect of consciousness mentioned above, you don't have to look much further than the last 3 years in the modern world. A great pandemic spanned the globe. If people could just work together and behave properly, it would result in minimal losses. But people chose not to. A massive climate crisis threatens to destroy the world as we know it. If people could just work together and behave properly, it could be counteracted. But people choose not to.
    It is as Kirschtaria says: mankind never makes the right decision. The idea that they would choose the best path because it really is the best path is just flat out wrong, based solely on a optimistic view rooted in the fact that "humanity has persevered this far", but ignoring the fact that such a thing cannot proceed unhindered. It will come to an end, and all of man will answer for the choices the species as a whole made, wrongly.
    All I can say is that you're speaking as someone who's been so conditioned by the current economic system (which I should remind you is just a little over 200 years old or so) that you've lost the capacity to understand that other systems both can and have worked. And it's not the species as a whole that's made those bad choices, but a small handful of humans who have imposed their choices on everyone else and then tricked them into thinking that they couldn't do anything else. And you think I speak of reform when in fact I advocate for a full fledged revolution. The end result may not be utopian, but it would be damn hard to do any worse than we already are.

    Truly, it's sad when one can imagine the end of the world more easily than the end of capitalism and hierarchy. But I'll be nice here and give you one of the works that's illustrated all those supposedly impossible things happening in the real world even as we speak, along with another that acts as a primer for the theories behind it. Though it may not convince you, I am sure others will not be so prone to despair or as narrow-minded.

    https://theanarchistlibrary.org/libr...-anarchy-works

    https://www.anarchistfaq.org/afaq/index.html (see sections A, B, C, and I)

    If you're still not convinced by that, fine. Just keep your bitter misanthropy, desire to make those problems magically solve themselves, and hatred of what you are to yourself and stop trying to do the very thing you say shouldn't be done- by saying that "humans never make the right choice", you can only refute your own argument because by its own definition it cannot be the right choice either. But if you truly want to break free of that cursed cycle of consciousness, as you call it, there's only one way to do so: by ending that consciousness. I assume you know what I mean by that.

    Besides, you also presume too much in assuming that there is a single "human nature". Each and every person has their own "human nature" shaped by their genes, environment, and a dozen other things besides that. Claiming that everyone is fundamentally the same is spreading an absurd myth at best and claiming that they're all fundamentally wicked and selfish is even more so: had that actually been the case, humanity wouldn't have even lasted long enough to get to where we are. It would have self-destructed a dozen times over before then.

    Let me put it this way: does "human nature" dictate that because you disagree with me, you ought to murder me and that the only thing holding you back from doing so is the fact that you can't kill someone over the Internet? Or that the nameless boy was somehow an inhuman aberration for not killing Kirschtaria on the spot for whatever belongings he possessed?
    Last edited by InsertNameHsre; October 9th, 2022 at 09:08 AM.

  17. #75457
    My guy, that's exactly what we have done since the very beginning.

  18. #75458
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    Looking at the size chart for the Olympians again, it's sort of weird seeing how much bigger Aphrodite is than the Golden Huge Bear, when they look basically the same size in game.
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    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
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  19. #75459


    The answer of all of our problem is genocide! As the genocide will decrease our population this will reduce the chance of human race choosing the wrong choices, even if they still choose the wrong choice the effects will be considerably reduced! Truly genocide is the only answer to extend the age of human race as a whole!

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    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle InsertNameHsre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunhelier View Post


    The answer of all of our problem is genocide! As the genocide will decrease our population this will reduce the chance of human race choosing the wrong choices, even if they still choose the wrong choice the effects will be considerably reduced! Truly genocide is the only answer to extend the age of human race as a whole!
    I was actually alluding to suicide, because you can't prove that I and everyone else in the world isn't just a figment of your imagination and that you're the only being that actually exists.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    My guy, that's exactly what we have done since the very beginning.
    Murdering literally everyone we don't agree with? In that case, half the people here including me should be dead a few dozen times over right now.
    Last edited by InsertNameHsre; October 9th, 2022 at 08:46 AM.

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