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Thread: Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

  1. #67081
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    About the event's Foreigner Servant, Clytie-van Gogh. Her circumstances was caused by van Gogh's unwillingness to help Outer God(s)' scheme, hence the need of his powers to be ingrained to Clytie.
    This reminds me of Alien God and Olga Marie theory, that Alien Priestess is Olga Marie's consciousness while her body is used by Alien God. What if Olga Marie resisted AG so much that it forced AG to trap her mind inside Priestess, which explain how she couldn't communicate normally, and also how AG got the knowledge of Chaldea and is even dubbed as Anti-Chaldea? There are times that Priestess' action somewhat helps Chaldea, like destroying Russia's Fantasy Tree, but there are points where she also berate them, like Olga Marie would as Director scolding subordinates.

    I read in other forums how mixed the reception of this event was, but I think they had to make it so that the revelation and explanations for Alien God's nature won't be entirely came out of nowhere and long-winded.

    That's my speculation. Is that likely?
    Your strongest point here "I think they had to make it so that the revelation and explanations for Alien God's nature won't be entirely came out of nowhere and long-winded." This wouldn't be a main story chapter if it didn't have an essential purpose to the overarching narrative, and with both the Outer Gods and Beast VII being fictional alien gods, it's very safe to guess that this event is a manual to how Olga should be dealt with.

    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    speculation time.

    i have seen several people say that the topics of the 4 singularities in EoR will end up spelling the truth for mystery of the plot of the Lostbelt saga.

    "A plot devised through fabrication"

    "Subjugation through fantasy"

    "Vengeance sought through dreams"

    "Advent through superstition"


    we can already guess what the first two allude to given the deductions we got from Olympus regarding the Fantasy Trees, but where do you think the last two will come into play?
    I think these keywords apply only for their respective EoR chapters. Other than that, Shinjuku and Agartha are there to show fully fictional worlds before the Lostbelts happen, Shimousa to introduce Douman and the alien god (while clueing in at its potential nature as a devil), and Salem to create the Foreigner class, which mirrors Olga's situation in many ways.

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    So Gudao has to find a well-recorded artist who's part Alien God so they can do surgery?
    Supports:


    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  3. #67083
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    Oh boy get ready for Michelangelo-Azathoth

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    Bonus points if they ever dressed as a clown or drew a pierrot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  5. #67085
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  6. #67086
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    looking at four things regarding The Alien God and the Outer Gods

    1- why can the outer gods, closer to True Demons, paint over reality with their alien common sense? wouldnt' that be something that Daemons do instead?

    2- if Beast VII is clothing herself in all types of attire to indicate authority, doesnt that make her closer to a Daemon then? meaning that she is trying to adopt something from human common sense in order to strenghten her existence?

    3- if Beast VII isnt the Alien God and the Alien God was hypothetically created by Olga's dad, what does subjugating the final beast with a human creation do for the whole "Humans are meant to overcome the Beasts" thing? does it signal the start of humans exploring space?

    4- so let me get this straight. the outer gods are fictional yet Gilles tells us that they have forms and lifespans. how are they fictional then? wouldn't it be more accurate to translate "fictional" into "residing in *not*reality"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post
    Darling, with this you have proved yourself the ultimate definition of hollow.
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post

    There's nothing more hollow than an apologist and his claims, because they ultimately amount to nothing but 'this is good because I like it'.



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    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

  7. #67087
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    That's kinda difficult to answer one because it feels like you have some pretty wrong preconceptions on what devils are. Let me just dump the definitions instead.

    Devils

    The Sixth Imaginary Element. Beings who cling to human wishes and try to fulfill them on a twisted manner.

    The concept of devils is considered the greatest obstacle for humanity. If a god is an omniscient and omnipotent being, then a devil is unenlightened and incompetent. An abyss that can be reached but never understood.

    In Fate/stay Night, only fake devils exist, and in even Fate/EXTRA, not a single phenomenon managed to create True Devil as of the current year of 2030.

    Devils generally possess people, and attempt to incarnate by using human bodies, but the human mind used as their seedbed usually can't withstand the burden, severing all their connections to others and collapsing on itself.

    Some human lost their humanity as result of their own acts, and feel into the devil category as result, but this is called demonization, and doesn't make True Devils.

    Being possessed by a devil causes abnormalities on other components, ultimately changing even the flesh, turning them into a hideous monster. The higher ranked the devil is, the less evident its symptoms are, making the condition harder to diagnose. It only gets easy to detect it after the great disaster is already arranged.

    Despite the names "devils" and "demonized humans", they function identically to meta-dimensional lifeforms, living in different planets, in different cultural spheres. That's because they no longer fit into this Universe of Awareness' definition of human. The Outer Gods from one fictional mythology popular in the 20th century function very similarly to devils.

    Sesshouin Kiara reached this territory with her transmigration in CCC's True Route, but was demoted from her divine status due to a trivial mistake.
    True Devils

    Real devils. Incarnate magic.

    The Holy Church uses the term True Devil to refer to real devils, not the fakes who earned individual names by taking the form of human ideas. They are the real devils, who used to serve the Lord, and were already devils even before he was named by humans.


    Due to them being creations of magic before they are organisms, they can use magecraft in a much higher level than humans can. Due to all of their bodily functions drawing in magic, they don't have anything resembling Magic Circuits, the retrofit pseudo-nerves mages have.


    The concept of devils is considered the greatest obstacle for humanity. If a god is an omniscient and omnipotent being, then a devil is unenlightened and incompetent. An abyss that can be reached but never understood.

    In Fate/stay Night, only fake devils exist, and in even Fate/EXTRA, not a single phenomenon managed to create True Devil as of the current year of 2030.

    It's considered that humanity doesn't stand a chance real, incarnate devil. There's only one registered case of precedent to someone driving away an incarnate devil.
    The key difference between the true and the fake (valid to pretty much everything in TM, not only devils) is that true things are made by nature, while fake/fictional things are made by man. When FGO says Outer Gods are fictional, they're not there was some "unreality" where they existed until Raum pulled them into the world. It's saying Lovecraft & Friends made up this gods for their stories, and then Raum created them through the magecraft ritual that was Salem. Beast VII and its Lostbelts potentially being fictional means they were likely created by the Animusphere's magecraft.

    Basically, for all magecraft contexts, true = natural, fake = artificial.

  8. #67088
    死徒 Dead Apostle Gold Experience's Avatar
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    I might be remembering this wrong, but didn't Lovecraft somehow fictionalized real aliens? Also if we go by Van Gogh and Hokusai's bios, Outer gods existed way before Salem unfolded. You can even throw in Prelati as shady as his connection is.

  9. #67089
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    Can't say for certain if they're real, since Raum had mentioned them as born from a man's fever dream, at least in NA.
    After 2 years of playing FGO(since 2018)
    Spoiler:

    Shorthand for stacking Buffs
    Spoiler:


  10. #67090
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    That's kinda difficult to answer one because it feels like you have some pretty wrong preconceptions on what devils are. Let me just dump the definitions instead.





    The key difference between the true and the fake (valid to pretty much everything in TM, not only devils) is that true things are made by nature, while fake/fictional things are made by man. When FGO says Outer Gods are fictional, they're not there was some "unreality" where they existed until Raum pulled them into the world. It's saying Lovecraft & Friends made up this gods for their stories, and then Raum created them through the magecraft ritual that was Salem. Beast VII and its Lostbelts potentially being fictional means they were likely created by the Animusphere's magecraft.

    Basically, for all magecraft contexts, true = natural, fake = artificial.
    How can they be True Demons if they were created by humans and the products of humanity?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post
    Darling, with this you have proved yourself the ultimate definition of hollow.
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post

    There's nothing more hollow than an apologist and his claims, because they ultimately amount to nothing but 'this is good because I like it'.



    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

  11. #67091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Experience View Post
    I might be remembering this wrong, but didn't Lovecraft somehow fictionalized real aliens? Also if we go by Van Gogh and Hokusai's bios, Outer gods existed way before Salem unfolded. You can even throw in Prelati as shady as his connection is.
    It's (very unnecessarily) complicated. Greek, Norse, etc. gods were there but peeling off their textures made them lost from history. Outer Gods, on the other hand, don't exist in
    the Solar System
    our universe
    , and never did.

    Cthulhu lore claims Cthulhu sleeps in a fish city in the depths of the Pacific Ocean, but neither him nor his city are anywhere to be found in the Pacific. Cthulhu lore claims our universe is dreamed by Azathoth, but that's irrelevant because there's no Azathoth to begin with.

    But here's the stupid part. Outer Gods don't exist in our universe, but exist just fine outside of it, and there's an astronomically low risk of them connecting to our universe. Prelati accidentally connected once, judged this to be too dangerous, then sealed his connection in that grimoire.

    Later, Lovecraft wrote horror that coincidentally happened to perfectly describe Outer Gods. Raum strongly insists that Lovecraft knows nothing about magecraft and had no idea he accidentally saying correct stuff.

    Basically, TM Outer Gods are just weird, unrelated things with similar traits to Lovecraft's fictional gods. That's the lore reason why the Outer Gods are never referred by name, even by the impersonal and unbiased Material books. The IRL reason why is questionable copyright.

    Then, in 2017, Raum used his Salem magecraft to bring in his Outer Gods, but since his area was a piece of the 1693 Salem Witch Trials isolated from time, the Outer Gods retroactively started existing in 1693, allowing Cthulu to interact with Hokusai in 1849 and van Gogh in 1890.

    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    How can they be True Demons if they were created by humans and the products of humanity?
    That's exactly what I'm telling you. Outer Gods are regular, fake devils. They have nothing to do with True, aside from maybe being the fake devil most similar to the real thing (unconfirmed).

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    Wait that means all Foreigners are going to be comparative moderners instead of like, Akhenaten.

    That makes them even more of a meme class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  13. #67093
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Arha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Your strongest point here "I think they had to make it so that the revelation and explanations for Alien God's nature won't be entirely came out of nowhere and long-winded." This wouldn't be a main story chapter if it didn't have an essential purpose to the overarching narrative, and with both the Outer Gods and Beast VII being fictional alien gods, it's very safe to guess that this event is a manual to how Olga should be dealt with.
    Pay zero attention to anything going on and throw Melt and Sitonai at all your problems until they go away?

  14. #67094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    Wait that means all Foreigners are going to be comparative moderners instead of like, Akhenaten.

    That makes them even more of a meme class.
    We already have one exception with Yang Guifei, who turned immortal in 756, so I guess the rule is "be alive post-1693, even if the human part of your life happened before it".

  15. #67095
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    So, Outer Gods are actual aliens who existed outside of our universe/solar system, but Raum used a ritual to connect them to Lovecraft's creations?

  16. #67096
    Quote Originally Posted by Zork Knight View Post
    So, Outer Gods are actual aliens who existed outside of our universe/solar system, but Raum used a ritual to connect them to Lovecraft's creations?
    They exist, but it's important to note that when they say "another universe" they really do mean that these entities exist nowhere within all of creation that we inhabit (since universe per definition refers to all of space and time and everything contained within them), so it's not like the outer gods just exist in some parallel universe or world or in the texture of a bygone age (like the reverse side), it's literally another universe.

    So they exist there, elsewhere, and Lovecraft just happened to get a lot of stuff about them right via his dreams, and he wrote it all down as his fiction, then Raum used that as his basis to connect to their place of existence. So it's not that Raum took Lovecraft's writing and literally turned it from fiction to reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
    Quote Originally Posted by Neir View Post
    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kateikyo View Post
    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  17. #67097
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    It's (very unnecessarily) complicated. Greek, Norse, etc. gods were there but peeling off their textures made them lost from history. Outer Gods, on the other hand, don't exist in
    the Solar System
    our universe
    , and never did.

    Cthulhu lore claims Cthulhu sleeps in a fish city in the depths of the Pacific Ocean, but neither him nor his city are anywhere to be found in the Pacific. Cthulhu lore claims our universe is dreamed by Azathoth, but that's irrelevant because there's no Azathoth to begin with.

    But here's the stupid part. Outer Gods don't exist in our universe, but exist just fine outside of it, and there's an astronomically low risk of them connecting to our universe. Prelati accidentally connected once, judged this to be too dangerous, then sealed his connection in that grimoire.

    Later, Lovecraft wrote horror that coincidentally happened to perfectly describe Outer Gods. Raum strongly insists that Lovecraft knows nothing about magecraft and had no idea he accidentally saying correct stuff.

    Basically, TM Outer Gods are just weird, unrelated things with similar traits to Lovecraft's fictional gods. That's the lore reason why the Outer Gods are never referred by name, even by the impersonal and unbiased Material books. The IRL reason why is questionable copyright.

    Then, in 2017, Raum used his Salem magecraft to bring in his Outer Gods, but since his area was a piece of the 1693 Salem Witch Trials isolated from time, the Outer Gods retroactively started existing in 1693, allowing Cthulu to interact with Hokusai in 1849 and van Gogh in 1890.



    That's exactly what I'm telling you. Outer Gods are regular, fake devils. They have nothing to do with True, aside from maybe being the fake devil most similar to the real thing (unconfirmed).

    wait so how do the painting and van gogh work in the "original" history

  18. #67098
    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    wait so how do the painting and van gogh work in the "original" history
    Salem "happening" in 2017 doesn't matter because it takes place in 1693, so history retroactively now includes the Outer Gods expansion pack for all content after 1693, and that includes Van Gogh who lived in the 1800s. It's just like how if someone in the future becomes a new Heroic Spirit Gilgamesh will still get their NP/prototype because it's a retroactive clause. And because only humans and other lifeforms from Earth are bad enough to experience time linearly, it only seems like a big question mark to us since it's retroactive, but you have to remember that a lot of higher level stuff in the nasuverse just deal with universes of records and just see all of time at once, so technically there never was an "original history without outer gods" but if there was, it's probably safe to assume that he just made a normal painting (or not, considering the shit all the artists get into in Fate nowadays).
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
    Quote Originally Posted by Neir View Post
    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kateikyo View Post
    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  19. #67099
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    They exist, but it's important to note that when they say "another universe" they really do mean that these entities exist nowhere within all of creation that we inhabit (since universe per definition refers to all of space and time and everything contained within them), so it's not like the outer gods just exist in some parallel universe or world or in the texture of a bygone age (like the reverse side), it's literally another universe.
    Yeah I got this. Feels like another setting would be an appropriate way to describe it.

  20. #67100
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork Knight View Post
    Yeah I got this. Feels like another setting would be an appropriate way to describe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post

    so let me get this straight. the outer gods are fictional yet Gilles tells us that they have forms and lifespans. how are they fictional then? wouldn't it be more accurate to translate "fictional" into "residing in *not*reality"?
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post
    Darling, with this you have proved yourself the ultimate definition of hollow.
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post

    There's nothing more hollow than an apologist and his claims, because they ultimately amount to nothing but 'this is good because I like it'.



    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

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