Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[fumei]

Speaking of the downgrading, I have the idea that all Grands have this kind of "degrading the target to beatable range" kind of deal. Gramps has it, Orion has it, Quirinus as the ROMA himself prob can nerf any Roman Beast such as Nero down (maybe it's because of him losing his crown in Olympus that Noah was sent to Arcade?), Ziya has that specific counter NP to any Beast incarnating from the Golden Fox, and Solomon just deletes Goetia. Not sure about Merlin, I don't think using flowers to nerf Chaos Tide is his specific counter move.

It's a little weird, because the way Nasu described what KH did, it sounded like it was mostly doable because he used the difference in energy between a regular saint graph and a grand saint graph to basically "balance the scales", which I think sort of aligns with how Orion was able to get a big boost when shooting down Artemis by discarding his crown, but then the question is can everyone do what KH did, or do they all have some different sort of boost that they can use that energy surplus for once they discard their crown?

[Lily Emilio]

It's a little weird, because the way Nasu described what KH did, it sounded like it was mostly doable because he used the difference in energy between a regular saint graph and a grand saint graph to basically "balance the scales", which I think sort of aligns with how Orion was able to get a big boost when shooting down Artemis by discarding his crown, but then the question is can everyone do what KH did, or do they all have some different sort of boost that they can use that energy surplus for once they discard their crown?

I think its the latter. ROMA used all of his Authority juice to boost the Storm Border to reach Chaos and lost his crown, didn't boost him but for us, or OTOH you can also say it allowed him to send us there. So I don't think they all work the same. Also when factoring in the specific move to deal with the Beast themselves, the cost varies. Solomon's Ars Nova has quite an insane drawback to him, Ziya's anti-golden fox stuffs seemingly donn't have any side effects on him since he was so ready to use those (he's not in the Grand vessel there tho, seems to be just the classic anti-X Xian arts than a Grand-specific privilege). In Orion's case his specific anti-Beast NP doesn't have drawback as far as what is being said in the profile, and is by far the only NP that has a Grand-specific additional effect. Gramps is a strange case cuz I've seen debates about whether the "implant death concept on the target" is separate from the "downgrading the saint graph" or it's him combining his counter move AND the crown sacrifice boost because the situation was so dire, or if he was using Azrael. I'm waiting for whatever Noah is going to use against Beast Nero to see if my idea holds up tbh.

[Lily Emilio]

Also an additional idea I had base on this, as I've mentioned earlier, is that ROMA might have been a fitting counter to Nero (even if he was summoned outside of Counter Force summoning) like Orion for Koyan, but both of them are gone after Olympus, so the CF sent the next best person for the job. My impression is that Noah might have been a very good candidate to be sent to fight Koyan, as he loves animals. His affinity with animals can be used to help making peace with Koyan easier, and Ziya said that his world egg plan is like a mimic of Noah's big feat. What if the Ark is capable of sending the entire Koyan RM into space? It would be a peaceful and fitting solution just like Ziya did. But Noah has another more important target that is VI in Arcade, so he got sent over there and Ziya is summoned in his place, who has ties to the Golden Fox and is capable of performing pseudo-Noah world egg shenanigans.

[Zork Knight]

But Ziya wasn't summoned by the CF, he was sent by Whatshisface?

Noah countering Koyan by taking all the animals away makes sense though

And yeah, Quirinus probably would have an advantage against Literally the City and Empire of Rome Demonized

Impressive that we had to burn though two Grands in Atlantis/Olympus for no Beast.

[Comun]

Balances out how we burn through two Beasts in the III duology for no Grand.

[Lily Emilio]

Ziya was not being entirely honest with us so we don't know exactly, but he said a few times about the Human Order (which he also compares to his Master Yuanshi Tianzun) being a troublesome boss iirc.

[fumei]

Balances out how we burn through two Beasts in the III duology for no Grand.

I think we're still one grand short in the Grand to Beast economy.

Goetia: Caster Solomon
Tiamat: Assassin KH
Kiara: n/a
Kama: n/a
Koyan: Archer Orion
n/a: Quirinus
(Draco: Noah)

but I guess that only makes sense that there might not be one grand available for each split of III if we assume they'll go for a clean 7 appearances.

- - - Updated - - -

I think its the latter. ROMA used all of his Authority juice to boost the Storm Border to reach Chaos and lost his crown, didn't boost him but for us, or OTOH you can also say it allowed him to send us there. So I don't think they all work the same. Also when factoring in the specific move to deal with the Beast themselves, the cost varies. Solomon's Ars Nova has quite an insane drawback to him, Ziya's anti-golden fox stuffs seemingly donn't have any side effects on him since he was so ready to use those (he's not in the Grand vessel there tho, seems to be just the classic anti-X Xian arts than a Grand-specific privilege). In Orion's case his specific anti-Beast NP doesn't have drawback as far as what is being said in the profile, and is by far the only NP that has a Grand-specific additional effect. Gramps is a strange case cuz I've seen debates about whether the "implant death concept on the target" is separate from the "downgrading the saint graph" or it's him combining his counter move AND the crown sacrifice boost because the situation was so dire, or if he was using Azrael. I'm waiting for whatever Noah is going to use against Beast Nero to see if my idea holds up tbh.

Yeah we'll obviously have to see and get more info to really make any good assumptions at this point, but I'd like this idea of them having their own special Grand-specific ultimate attacks, and that is the actual reason for renouncing their crowns. "Having" to do that whenever they take down their enemy always struck me as the weirdest part, since it'd seem like if the CF has a limited supply of Grand candidates to go through, it wouldn't want to permanently have each one just mark themselves as "not available" after a single summon.

[Lily Emilio]

"Having" to do that whenever they take down their enemy always struck me as the weirdest part, since it'd seem like if the CF has a limited supply of Grand candidates to go through, it wouldn't want to permanently have each one just mark themselves as "not available" after a single summon.

On this topic I had some thought. It has always stood out to me that EMIYA Alter was sent to find Kiara and not a Grand. Sure she was a larva Beast at the time but her power is simply way beyond his abilities. I believed that other than his specific connections to Kiara, it's either because Kiara's NP has anti-Grand attributes that sending a Grand would not be ideal, or the CF feel that BB being there is good enough, or that he was sent there to take out Zepar or FGO Kiara BEFORE she manages to turn Beast through the CCC data Zepar downloaded. It's basically like how Kerry was sent to assassinate Irisviel in the FZ collab - taking the potential danger out asap before they even have the chance to do anything (it failed in Kiara case, but I think it might be the CF's original intention). With the problem of Grands losing crowns, I feel like the Counter Guardians would potentially be good choice to take out the target asap before they manifest as a Beast or grow to the point of needing a Grand. We have CGs like Okita Alter and Ryoma who are decently powerful, and I don't think they are the ceiling of CGs, there might be really strong CGs out there who might not be as OP as grands but very strong for servant standards fitting for the job. Use them to take out potential Beasts ready to strike, or a very very weak larva Beast while saving Grands for the most desperate cases would be more ideal than waiting for them to grow up and dispatch Grands.

[Comun]

The two Beasts that didn’t get a Grand were defeated by the principle that two Beasts can’t manifest at the same time and era without clashing with each other. BB, while not a Beast even larvally, is a confirmed Evil of Humanity so she played the Grand part by inventing the Kiara Punishers to make us immune to Kiara’s instawin mental attack. And then Kiara herself played the Grand role against Kama by warping us out of Kama’s trap so we could come back to it better prepared.

[Laserman]

The two Beasts that didn’t get a Grand were defeated by the principle that two Beasts can’t manifest at the same time and era without clashing with each other.

Is that a rule or something?

[Wolf Paladin]

Here is my take on the whole Grand vs Beast thing :

Grand Caster Solomon counters Goetia since he is the only Heroic spirit not affected by Goetia’s Nega summon skill which negates Noble phantasm. Merlin works as a proxy since he is technically not a proper Heroic spirit due to hil highjacking the summoning system from Avalon so his NP might not be affected as much.

Grand Assassin King Hassan counters Tiamat not only on an conceptual level (he is Death, she is Life) but also can bypass her Paradox Restoration by applying the concept of « being killable » to her

Grand Archer Orion counters Fou and Koyansyaka since his Noble phantasm allows him to degrade any animal Beast into something he can hunt.

Grand Rider Noah counters Draco since his ride can rise above the wave she creates plus thematically you have a man chosen by the Christian God to survive the Flood against the Whore of Babylon which is described as an enemy of God. Due to this he could also be a possible counter for 666 who is said to have a link with Mother harlot

I have said in my previous post that if Quirinus could be a counter to a Beast it would be Da Ji and possibly Amaterasu since they can cause the collapse of civilization while Quirinus rebuilds it. Also it would be yet another parallel of the rivalry between Nero and Tamamo.

Now for the fun part I have been thinking this for a while but when it comes to the counter of Beast III and VII there are two cases scenarios :

1) Grand Berserker counter Kama and Kiara since his madness is so potent that mental attacks would be ineffective. It would give another reason for Daybit’s visit to LB4 : his Servant wanted to go there to kill Kama. Plus it would explain why no Grand or counter Servant showed up for Kama : the counter to Kama was already summoned but asDaybit’s Servant. That would make Grand Saber the counter to U-Olga meaning it would most likely be Musashi showing up at the last moment with a power up at the climax

2) Grand Saber counters Kama and Kiara since the pinacle of swordsmanship requires a mindset similar to enlightenment which would allow Grand Saber to ignore human desires such as lust. That would mean that Grand Berserker counters U-Olga which is bad because it would mean that the Servant supposed to counter U-Olga is working with her. It would be interesting because then it begs the question : why didn’t Grand Saber show to help us then against Kama (I don’t count Kiara since Emiya alter was sent to deal with her). My theory then is that Grand Saber used their Grand seat to protect the world from Velbar which means that there is currently no Grand Saber. As for why there is no replacement my guess is that Excalibur is supposed to chose the next Grand Saber abd Arturia was the only worthy to be a candidate but lacked the power and mindset to be a Grand similar to how Angra Mainyu is a Beast candidate but lacks the power necessary to wield the Beast Saint graph. In other words if Arturia survived Camlann with Excalibur and continue to grow as a swordsman she could have been Grand Saber. Ergo the conditions of being Grand Saber are : a zen mindset that reaches enlightenment and being chosen by Excalibur

[Reign]

King Hassan also has immunity to instant kills with his At the Boundary skill, which works with the anime version of Tiamat's Nega-Genesis.

[Lobo]

My theory then is that Grand Saber used their Grand seat to protect the world from Velbar which means that there is currently no Grand Saber. As for why there is no replacement my guess is that Excalibur is supposed to chose the next Grand Saber abd Arturia was the only worthy to be a candidate but lacked the power and mindset to be a Grand similar to how Angra Mainyu is a Beast candidate but lacks the power necessary to wield the Beast Saint graph. In other words if Arturia survived Camlann with Excalibur and continue to grow as a swordsman she could have been Grand Saber. Ergo the conditions of being Grand Saber are : a zen mindset that reaches enlightenment and being chosen by Excalibur

What about Arthur then?
He has been dispatch (granted by Merlin) from Avalon to hunt down Beast VI. It isn't confirm that he is a Grand but at the same time we know he's not a regular summon servant, he could be doing the job of a CG but it's also possible his storyline could make him ascend to full Grand status/reveal his Grand status on the final battle against VI on mobile.

[Sssgth]

Still reminded of the crack theory that Nasu chose Altria to counterpose A(R)thur and A(L)tria as a two-in-one Grand Saber

[fumei]

Still reminded of the crack theory that Nasu chose Altria to counterpose A(R)thur and A(L)tria as a two-in-one Grand Saber

I hate this.

[Kirishima]

Nasu I kneel

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Still reminded of the crack theory that Nasu chose Altria to counterpose A(R)thur and A(L)tria as a two-in-one Grand Saber

Too roundabout for my taste.

[VTKajin]

Arthur for VI/L and Noah for VI/R
Grand Berserker for Beast V
Grand Saber for Beast VII

That's what I'd guess

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Fujimaru and Mash are obviously gonna be bootleg Grand Saber and Excaliblast Beast VII.

[ItsaRandomUsername]

Speaking of, since Tunguska was denied being 6.5, and the latest THE DOT has a seemingly golden/light motif, my gut instinct is that that's gonna be the chapter where the Excalibur weapon will be fine-tuned and finalized.