Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[AmADo VII]

sadly no machine god Hades.

I bet he's as big as Zeus and Poseidon.

[Kamera]

Nothing on the Titan Atlas sadge

[fumei]

There's being idealistic, and there's being too dumb to live. I seriously wonder if Kirschtaria ever interacted with another human being before or after that creepy kid so he could realize that intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with virtue. Really, all that would do would be to make the bad men into clever devils.

I'm almost certain I've used this analogy in the past, but I'll do it again anyway because I still think it holds. Giving humans as they are more intelligence and wisdom while doing absolutely nothing to address the fact that they spiritually are not prepared for being quasi-gods is akin to giving a monkey a loaded assault rifle: someone is going to be hurt and it's only funny if you're watching from a safe distance.

The issue here is that your analogy falls flat because that's not at all what was going to happen. The whole point of becoming "gods" is to transcend humanity, not just to give humans a boost. That step is to eliminate the intrinsic necessities that come with being human and a living being, while the heightened intelligence (and remember, though the spotlight says he gives one rank higher, the story seemed pretty clear that this intelligence would far surpass anything here now) would serve to eliminate all other human faults.

Saying we would just have the bad guys be smarter and stronger is completely missing the point of what he was doing.

[Shlugo]

Wodime's Lostbelt itself feels like a giant refutation of his plan. Turns out being a god with vast capabilities and intelligence does not stop one from messing everything up. It just makes a bigger mess.

[yokushi]

Wodime's Lostbelt itself feels like a giant refutation of his plan. Turns out being a god with vast capabilities and intelligence does not stop one from messing everything up. It just makes a bigger mess.

The entire point of Atlantis/Olympus is that Mechanical Gods aren't really human though. The idea was never using those as a comparison because they are fundamentally another thing entirely. Wodime's plan wasn't going to create a new set of Mechanical Gods.

[InsertNameHere]

The entire point of Atlantis/Olympus is that Mechanical Gods aren't really human though. The idea was never using those as a comparison because they are fundamentally another thing entirely. Wodime's plan wasn't going to create a new set of Mechanical Gods.

The end results of his plan wouldn't be human either. Flaws are part of what makes humans human. It wouldn't let them transcend anything, it would simply make them into monsters utterly divorced from the human condition. And the great thing about empathy is that it can be ignored...or twisted into a form that openly justifies screwing over anyone you deem unworthy of it. Heightened intelligence wouldn't even remove most of those faults, if anything it tends to make them worse.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all. I have every reason to believe he'd learn that soon enough.

[yokushi]

The end results of his plan wouldn't be human either. Flaws are part of what makes humans human. It wouldn't let them transcend anything, it would simply make them into monsters utterly divorced from the human condition. And the great thing about empathy is that it can be ignored...or twisted into a form that openly justifies screwing over anyone you deem unworthy of it. Heightened intelligence wouldn't even remove most of those faults, if anything it tends to make them worse.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all. I have every reason to believe he'd learn that soon enough.

But ultimately what you are saying it's entirely subjective. You are just being pessimistic by using an opinion based on the current state of humanity (with the entire point of the plan being that is going to change), and then thinking that flaws are what makes humans what they are.

In the first place, there isn't an actual objective definition to what makes humans well... human. What you are saying is just as valid as what Wodime is saying, with the difference that he is an optimist that chooses to believe that humans are more than the sum of their parts.

[Laserman]

- The apostles of the Alien God failing their vs Chaldea duty.
- The reason why Muramasa was chosen as an apostle.
- Act of burning the Fantasy Tree in the 6th Lostbelt.

There's no way he could have predicted the 2nd or 3rd thing happening. But what did he mean by the first one though?

[Castellan]

I feel like it's really silly to argue over whether or not his plan "would have worked" when it's deliberately left very intensely ambiguous.

[InsertNameHere]

I feel like it's really silly to argue over whether or not his plan "would have worked" when it's deliberately left very intensely ambiguous.

And I see no reason why that means I cannot err on the side of caution.

Anyway, any idea who the Assassin of Mt. Liang could be?

- - - Updated - - -

But ultimately what you are saying it's entirely subjective. You are just being pessimistic by using an opinion based on the current state of humanity (with the entire point of the plan being that is going to change), and then thinking that flaws are what makes humans what they are.

In the first place, there isn't an actual objective definition to what makes humans well... human. What you are saying is just as valid as what Wodime is saying, with the difference that he is an optimist that chooses to believe that humans are more than the sum of their parts.

They are more than the sum of their parts, but he goes too far and disregards the parts completely. And why does humanity need to change in the first place? If anything he's the pessimistic one because he can't accept humanity is just fine the way it is right now. As if we can't cooperate without having to be gods first!

[castor212]

As if we can't cooperate without having to be gods first!

well i mean

[Byegod]

Is that due to lacking the state of being gods or some other circumstance?

I think the argue is circling itself because fundamentally do we agree with the story that it may be a good idea, or we use inferences based on irl and other things to make our judgement

[Comun]

Depends on who is we.

[sentence]

The issue here is that your analogy falls flat because that's not at all what was going to happen. The whole point of becoming "gods" is to transcend humanity, not just to give humans a boost. That step is to eliminate the intrinsic necessities that come with being human and a living being, while the heightened intelligence (and remember, though the spotlight says he gives one rank higher, the story seemed pretty clear that this intelligence would far surpass anything here now) would serve to eliminate all other human faults.

Saying we would just have the bad guys be smarter and stronger is completely missing the point of what he was doing.

Yeah, and Kirschtaria was right.
But some people would not accept unless Nasu says it loud.

- - - Updated - - -

Latest From Lostbelt story is such a mess.

So mats shows that Castoria just died and was recorded as Servant to protect the World, now this story shows her talking to herself as Servant (?) and having some weird conversation like she'll fight forever if she will take the sword, like what?
Did they try to portray being recorded as Servant this way?

[yokushi]

I think the strongest point in favor of Wodime's idea is how Beryl reacts to it. Having Beryl of all people going against something is the perfect way to know there is some merit there.

[evilgrave]

Yeah, the way that Beryl’s the only Crypter against it while Pepe (in From Lostbelt) and Kadoc (in Traum) both say they wouldn’t have a problem with it is a good point.

[Menwearpink]

Mystery -> arcane is still the best change, not only because it frees me from looking for alternatives for the regular word "mystery" (which Nasu loves to use), but also because I no longer have to flip the grammar backward in 300 ways to accommodate how capital m Mystery is inflexibly a noun while 神秘 keeps being thrown around as a noun, adjective, adverb, or whatever the sentence flow sees fit. Translating Type-Moon has never been this comfortable.

Tbh its like the only change I disagree with but that's because why would you want to distance things from the Greek basis that everything is well, based on? in this setting.

[Comun]

Mysterion is indeed a Greek word but the source text represents the concept most often through a Japanese word (shinpi) of identically graphed Chinese origin (shenmi) with rare instances of it being rendered with an English (occult) or French word (mystere). The multiculturalism of the setting is definitely important and I can agree it’s a big factor weighting in Mystery’s favor, but unlike oni or xian that are also regional concepts in-universe, arcane is universal to the setting. I don’t know if the inconsistent use of ruby text in different languages is an intentional way of representing that, but it’s a neat one regardless.

Anyways here are the factors I consider, in order of priority. Might be missing some because it’s past 2 AM but hopefully this is comprehensive enough.
- Author’s furigana: TM is always sending mixed messages with this one as mentioned above, so not considered here.
- Etymology: Technically Chinese but the concept is discussed in-universe as Greek and applied to the whole planet, so there’s no easy answer here either.
- Recognizability: Mystery has the age advantage and Mystics has the officiality advantage. Arcane is young as a TM term, but it comes from A Piece of Blue Glass Moon, which is the franchise’s most advisable entry point at the moment, so Mystery’s advantage means less than Mystics’.
- Naturality/usage frequency: 神秘 is not a word that you’ll generally see in everyday conversation unless you like discussing the spirituality of nature, but it’s a decently common word in fantasy. That’s where arcane gains a huge edge over Mystery and occult. Its usage matches practically 1:1 with 神秘. Needless to say, this is where we cross Mystére off the candidate list.
- Least misleading synonyms: Either arcane or occult. Also technically Mystére, since is not an English word. Mystery is immediately off the race due to multiple past instances of people struggling to understand the concept because of the name. Aniplex Mystics is also here because its uses the word meaning “practitioners” to mean “practice”.
- Grammatical flexibility: Honestly, this one means nothing compared to rest and I’m only including it on the list because it’s a thing I praised in the previous post and it would be weird to leave it unaddressed. It’s not a factor that matters because Japanese and English sentence structures are so different that a lot will get shuffled around either way. Also this is a thing I only noticed after I started using arcane in practice rather a factor that weighted in the decision. 神秘 is a weird word that originated as a verb but is nowadays used as pretty much anything. Its good to have something as easily adaptable. Mystery has adjective forms in “mysterious“ and whatnot but its misleading synonyms make it be a necessarily capitalized word, which adds rigidity to term. Freely adapting that feels off. Mystics is a plural noun made singular to serve as lore term and I honestly don’t know how to handle this. That’s one complicated factor that made me go back on my short-lived early 2020 switch from Mystery to Mystics. Mystére is French so I also don’t know how to touch that. Occult is probably the closest to 神秘 in how it serves as verb, noun, and adjective. It’s also not capitalized, allowing natural adaptations when needed. If this was the number 1 factor, occult have easily been my choice. And then arcane is an lowercase adjective that is easy and natural to adapt to other forms (singular noun arcanum, plural noun arcana, uncountable noun arcanity, adverb arcanely, etc)

[InsertNameHere]

Is that due to lacking the state of being gods or some other circumstance?

I think the argue is circling itself because fundamentally do we agree with the story that it may be a good idea, or we use inferences based on irl and other things to make our judgement

The latter. For sure. It may be Nasu's story, but he can't stop us from realizing things he might not have thought about.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the strongest point in favor of Wodime's idea is how Beryl reacts to it. Having Beryl of all people going against something is the perfect way to know there is some merit there.

If you want my opinion that's more of Nasu being unwilling to entertain a real counterargument to his own obsession with transhumanism combined with his unwillingness to give Guda any ideals of their own beyond "I don't want to die".

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, and Kirschtaria was right.
But some people would not accept unless Nasu says it loud.

I'm still not accepting "because Nasu said so" as an argument in favor of it because an appeal to authority (even if it's the authority of an author, not like that's worth much) does not a good argument make. I judge his plan based on its merits, and they are not promising.

[Petrikow]

I've never read Nasu as being in favor of Kirschtaria's plan. That seems like a strange misread. There's a reason he's the villain, even if a noble one.