Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[Lily Emilio]

If she's the source of all the Asian fox stories then shouldn't it go her -> Amaterasu instead?

It goes both way due to how the mitama system works. Golden Fox is Amaterasu's Aramitama, and Good girl Amaterasu is Amaterasu Nigimitama. These two are different facets of one single soul, essentially one single being but at times this being is nasty, but at time shes cool. It's different from the bunreis like Daji or Tamamo who splits from her into actual different souls of different entities originated from the original.

However, because these 2 personas are so contrast of each other, Shinto generally considers these 2 facets as different deities (eventhough they are the same being). Becuz you don't want your benevolent chief god to be seen in her terrifying persona. This duality represents the natural phenomenon associated with the kami. The sun is the source of heat for life (Nigimitama, the good girl side), but it can also cause drought and destroy life (Aramitama, the bad girl side).

So the Ise Grand Shrine worships Amaterasu in one side, and in the other side of it worships the Aramitama of Amaterasu (has no known separate name). Nasu took that chance to create Konjiki Hakumen, an OC fox spirit that act as the Aramitama form of Amaterasu, but also the origin point of other nasty fox spirits.

This mechanic actually originated from Buddhism as well, where you have wrathful manifestations of Buddhas, like how Acala (the dude in Musashi's NP) is wrathful version of Vairocana in Esoteric Buddhism. Normally Vairocana is this loving, peaceful Buddha. But when he needs to use force to destroy evil, he pulls out his Acala persona.

[Reign]

Okay, I think I get it.

[Kubera]

I struggle to understand this notion of syncretism wanking anyone or making any gods overshadowed by anyone else, specially given that this is not supposed to be a story about flaunting deities in any way in the first place, nor is the syncretism anything other than trying to make things cohesive or just them having fun, and I don't think anyone was ever truly "wanked" or busted and came on top of everything due to syncretism. I think the issue exists purely in people's heads and what they make out of it rather than what is actually there (which is mostly nothing)

Especially because we know that when Nasu actually wants to wank a pantheon he doesn't use syncretism but turns them into aliens.

I love when people start complaining about these non-issues with Amaterasu because it always ends up with me getting spoonfed info on Konjiki and Shinto.

The best way to research history and mythology is to say something controversial on Beast Lair.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

It goes both way due to how the mitama system works. Golden Fox is Amaterasu's Aramitama, and Good girl Amaterasu is Amaterasu Nigimitama. These two are different facets of one single soul, essentially one single being but at times this being is nasty, but at time shes cool. It's different from the bunreis like Daji or Tamamo who splits from her into actual different souls of different entities originated from the original.

However, because these 2 personas are so contrast of each other, Shinto generally considers these 2 facets as different deities (eventhough they are the same being). Becuz you don't want your benevolent chief god to be seen in her terrifying persona. This duality represents the natural phenomenon associated with the kami. The sun is the source of heat for life (Nigimitama, the good girl side), but it can also cause drought and destroy life (Aramitama, the bad girl side).

So the Ise Grand Shrine worships Amaterasu in one side, and in the other side of it worships the Aramitama of Amaterasu (has no known separate name). Nasu took that chance to create Konjiki Hakumen, an OC fox spirit that act as the Aramitama form of Amaterasu, but also the origin point of other nasty fox spirits.

This mechanic actually originated from Buddhism as well, where you have wrathful manifestations of Buddhas, like how Acala (the dude in Musashi's NP) is wrathful version of Vairocana in Esoteric Buddhism. Normally Vairocana is this loving, peaceful Buddha. But when he needs to use force to destroy evil, he pulls out his Acala persona.

It's also not like a similar mechanic didn't exist in Hinduism with the whole Kali, Durga, and Parvati thing.

[mami-kouga]

This reminds me of that certain Mongolian basket weaving site schizo poster who complains about Raikou / Ushi Gozen in every thread saying that it's Nasu's moral imperative to make them "appear properly" in FGO because the mushroom once alluded that "there's more to it" in an interview or whatever.

If anything, I think it's there's point in that TM implying that "there's more to it" about some characters in any given story is a kind of unnecessary sequel baiting unless they're willing to just dump all the info into some Material Book.

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Personally, I think this was not the case with specifically Tamamo and Nero's "they're secretly an Evil of Mankind pls tanoshimi" story lore arc. Nasu definitely had an "explanatory story" in mind when they imply that there's more to Tamamo and Nero than what appeared in Extra.

Didn't that Psycho stop showing up recently? Or to the very least stopped specifically using Raikou to derail the thread

[Comun]

Is that the guy rumored to be just another facet of our deity Gosserbam?

[Bunhelier]

So it's literally a case of making things up and getting mad at your own interpretation?

There are always people who don't like some popular series because they only see the negative side, but it's not always their fault because there are cases where some of it is the writer's fault because he doesn't explain everything clearly and the fact that many people think that way is proof of that.

Bet you never went to Twitter who got it even worse when even if the author clearly write things many people still failed to understand author's intention.

Also you when you read something and get different interpretation that other people is not unusual lol

[mami-kouga]

Is that the guy rumored to be just another facet of our deity Gosserbam?

Most definitely

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Unless the thought of more than one ban evading weirdo obsessed with their own headcanons is more appealing

[DrStein]

So on a related note:

i was working on a little research project, and a tangential rabbit hole led me to researching the supposed connection between Sakra and Gozu-Tennou. I couldn't find anything in English, or anything leading to sources in another language.

Did Nasu just make that up wholesale because "Lightning God > Lightning God > Lighting God = Indra as Raikou's dad is funny", or is there any actual historic/cultural basis for it?

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Since it originates from Adventures, shouldn't that one come from Sanda rather than Nasu?

[Alfredo845]

Whenever something like that comes up I usually assume it's Miwa's fault, that or Nasu went back to ask a random monk for an explanation.

[Comun]

Did Nasu just make that up wholesale because "Lightning God > Lightning God > Lighting God = Indra as Raikou's dad is funny", or is there any actual historic/cultural basis for it?

Gozu Tennou -> Bhaisajyaguru -> Susanoo has cultural basis. So does an incarnation of Gozu Tennou being subordinate to Indra. And Gozu Tennou, Susanoo, and Indra have easily noticeable similarities. But Gozu Tennou being an avatar of Indra is Nasu-original.

[Lily Emilio]

Did Nasu just make that up wholesale because "Lightning God > Lightning God > Lighting God = Indra as Raikou's dad is funny", or is there any actual historic/cultural basis for it?

Gozu being an avatar of Indra might be Nasu-original, but it does have a basis, in that there were documents claiming Gozu is a subordinate, or messenger of Taishakuten (Indra name in Esoteric Buddhism). That basis is from onmyoudou, proposed by none other than Abe-no-Seimei himself, in this divination book "Sangokusouden Inyoukankatsu Hokinaden Kingyokutoshuu" or "Hokinaiden" for short.

In this book Seimei noted a lot of important things about Gozu Tennou, specifically his past life. The gist was that Gozu Tennou was originally a king of Magadha Kingdom, Northeast of mount Vulture (ah yes Mount Vulture again) and serves Taishakuten (Indra). He later became a star god (like the star gods in Taoism, which puts Gozu very close to Taoist deities, but he's not part of the Taoist pantheon and is a Japan exclusive creation) by the name Tengyou (天刑) that is feared in divinations due to his rough nature (not as much as, say, Taisui, but still bad). This star in particular when met with the...Ox zodiac sign of the year or the person's birth year means absolute disaster (can see where Nasu got the whole Ox demon connection from), but at the same time when met with FOUR specific other signs (Tiger, Dog, Rooster, Rabbit (or Cat in Vietnamese ver)) means great stuffs (Raikou's Elite Four?) .

With this relationship, Nasu turned Gozu into Taishakuten (Indra) avatar easily, because gods sending their own avatars as messengers is a valid thing in Shinto, Taoism and Buddhism.

[Kamera]

One of the more fucked-up syncretism discussed in El-Melloi Adventures is about Set (Ox Demon) being spread into India, China and Japan, eventually becoming Okuninushi (Ox Demon Susanoo's offspring).

Thinking about it, the plot of Adventures seems to imply that the concept of God-Eating could be TM's answer to syncretism as a whole.

[Lily Emilio]

I mean, Tamamo Cat did got mistaken for Bastet by Nitocris at one point...

Might not be a joke afterall...

[Kamera]

If some people think that Amaterasu=Vairocana (chief gods of closely related religions) is bad, then they're not prepared for the upcoming Amaterasu=Surya=Ra syncretism.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

If some people think that Amaterasu=Vairocana (chief gods of closely related religions) is bad, then they're not prepared for the upcoming Amaterasu=Surya=Ra syncretism.

Oh no...

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Speaking of which, hasn't seen Egypt mentioned for a while. Probably can't be helped with Sakurai focusing on Norse, but would've been fun to have it explored again what with Atlas' alchemists said to be descended from goddess Isis. Like who her consort was the lineage came from or something.

[Comun]

Sanda said the first draft of Adventures 4 was delivered on schedule, so expect Egypt in August.

[Kirishima]

Can't wait to roll for Bai Ruolong in FGO unironically