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Thread: Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

  1. #74701
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    It says right there that in order to be a Wizard (hacker style) you need special talent to put a buncha Magic Circuits into your body.
    I.E, it is simply qualifying how to become a Wizard: If you have the ability to put incorporate Magic Circuits into your body, that means you're now a Wizard, because your (cyber)-body now has Magic Circuits.

    Either way, EXTRA as fuck, and it doesn't really matter all too much. Seems like an explanation for how Wizards are different from normal hackers in the EXTRA-verse.
    Last edited by Petrikow; June 25th, 2022 at 04:01 PM.

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  3. #74703
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Wasn’t it that Magic Circuits are bodily organs that are connected to the soul?

  4. #74704
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post
    Wasn’t it that Magic Circuits are bodily organs that are connected to the soul?
    By that phrasing it just sounds like they're part of the body but connected to the soul.

    Of course, no idea where you've gotten it from (not to mention it appears to be a paraphrasing) so it'd be nice to have something concrete.

  5. #74705
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    I take it more as things that are connected to the soul is not necessarily inseparable from it, just like normal organs. When a Magic Circuit is damaged or lost, it just means the person lost the ability to perform Magecraft. They might find ways to recreate the Circuit, with various difficulty depending on the kind of being they are. In Paisen's case, she has it easy due to being an Elemental.

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  6. #74706
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    By that phrasing it just sounds like they're part of the body but connected to the soul.

    Of course, no idea where you've gotten it from (not to mention it appears to be a paraphrasing) so it'd be nice to have something concrete.
    Shit time to reread F/SN

    you are probably right that this is me misremembering somewhere so yeah, this ainít verified

  7. #74707
    A serious post then.

    Magic circuits being part of the soul is a technically correct statement in the sense that every "bodily" thing corresponds not just to a record in the body's "genes", but also to an exact record that is stored in the soul. This is not something unique to souls affected by the Third Magic, but even true for someone like Zouken.

    「いささか疑問が生じた。魔術師殿は既に不死。その年月も五百を越えよう。ならば、望みはとうに叶っている のではないか」
    「――――ほ」
     老魔術師は肩を震わせて声をあげた。
     それが笑い――悦びによるものではなく、憤怒によるものだとは誰が知ろう。
     ――そう、確かに間桐臓硯は不死に近い。
     今のように苗床となる肉体があり、本体である彼の
    ようき
    魂器
    が潰されないかぎり生き続ける。
     だが―そこにあるのは苦痛だけだ。
     間桐臓硯とて好き好んで老人の体を作っているのではない。
     自らを人でないモノに変貌させ、人の擬態をする。
     その魔術には限界があった。
     機械と同じだ。理論上は永久に動くとしても、理論を実践する部品は年月と共に錆びていく。
     部品は錆びる。歯車はズレていく。
    プログラム
    思考
    は、進化し続ける時代に追いつけなくなっていく。
    ――いやいや、ワシは不死ではないぞアサシン。
     ワシの体は腐る。何度新しい肉体を得ようと腐る。何をしようと腐っていくのだ。
     この新しい肉体とて既に腐敗が始まっている。
     生きたまま自身が腐っていくこの不快と屈辱――自らが人ではなく蟲なのだと受け入れる絶望、と言えば解っ てもらえるかな」
    「何故腐る。蟲どもではまっとうな肉体を作れないのか」
    「呵々、そのような事はないぞ。蟲どもは活きがよいからな。肉体面では何の問題もない。もとより老いる体を 憂いて寄生体となった身だ。肉体面の防備にぬかりはなかった。
     ワシは永遠に生き続ける方法、人間として留まれる方式として、この延命法を選んだつもりじゃ 」
    「……ますます判らぬな。完全な肉体維持を選んでおいてその始末なのか。
    そもそも何故、外見を老人に模す。肉を粘土のようにこねるのなら、如何様にも姿は変えられよう 」
    「よい質問じゃ。では問うが、もとの肉体を完全に失ったモノが、自らの力だけでかつての
    じぶん
    肉体
    を復元するとしよう。
     その場合――肉体を元の形に戻すものはなんだと思う?」
    「――肉体は己の肉体を記録している。肌が削げ、肉が落ちようとかつての姿に戻るのは、肉体そ のものに
    せっけいず
    遺伝子
    があるからだ」
    「うむ。遺伝子に記録された構成図じゃな。だがワシの場合は違う。そも、自身の構成を記録して いた
    にくたい
    遺伝子
    そのものを失ったのだ。
    せっけいず
    肉体
    を以って肉体を復元する事はできぬ。
     その場合――自己を覚え、元通りの“カタチ”にするモノはなんだと思うね?」
    「―――――――」
     答えるまでもない。
     それは魂だ。
     肉体が所属する物質界の法則ではなく、その上にあるもの、星幽界という概念に所属する物体の記録、世界そ のものの記憶体。
     ……そう、魂が健在ならば、肉体や遺伝子、細胞を失ったところで、かつての自分を復元できる だろう。
     では、この老魔術師は、つまり。
    「――なるほど。自身の魂だけを生かし、肉体は生きているモノたちから摂取する――それが魔術師殿の不死の 正体か。
     故に他の姿にはなれない。魔術師殿が存命させているモノは肉体ではなく魂。
     故に、
    たましい
    マトウゾウケン
    以外の姿は形作れない、と?」

    「当然であろう。ワシとて好き好んで老人の体を得ているワケではないわ。
     ……よいか、ワシはこの姿しか作れぬのだ。それも定期的に替えねば腐り落ちる不出来なモノよ。かつては一 度の取り替えで五十余年活動したワシが、今では数ヶ月に一度取り替えねば存命できぬ。
     ……その矮小さ、腐敗する苦しみが誰に理解できようか。間違えるな今代のアサシンよ。そのようなモノを、 二度と不死と称するでない――――」
     老魔術師の声には苛立ちが含まれている。
     召喚より三日目。
     ようやく暗殺者は、己が召喚者の正体を目の当たりにした。
    「……納得がいった。つまり、腐っているのは肉体ではなく」
    「……そう、
    ・・・・・・・
    魂が腐っておる

     時間の蓄積は幽体にさえ影響を及ぼすのだ。故にワシの体は腐る。構成図である魂が腐っていては、肉体が腐 り落ちるのも当然であろう」
    「ふむ――故に聖杯を求めるか。……憤る訳よな。その永遠、なまじ永久を知らぬ者より辛かろう 」
    「そうだとも。……ワシの体は腐る、腐るのだ。その苦しみ、骨の髄まで侵す
    どく
    時間
    から解放されねばならん……!
     その為の聖杯、その為の死なない体よ」
    「……そうだ。ワシは死にたくない、まだ
    存在
    きていたい、この世から消えてなくなるなど考えるだに恐ろしい……!
     ソレから逃れる為に何百年と生き、腐敗から逃れる為に何千という肉を食らい続けた……!解るか山の主よ、 ワシはこの蟲と化した自身が恨めしい、ワシだけが腐ることが恨めしい、人として当然のように、正しい肉体を 授かる
    むしども
    人間
    が恨めしいのだ――!」
    "This raises a question. You are already immortal. You have lived for over five centuries. Then, is your wish not already granted?"
    "[line4]Hah."
    The old magus lets out a cry.
    Who would know that the cry is not a laugh, but a cry of anger?

    [line3]Yes, Matou Zouken is almost immortal.
    He will live as long as there are bodies to infest and his soul remains alive.

    But[line3]there is only pain.
    Matou Zouken does not wear his current form by choice.

    Turning his body into something inhuman and mimicking human form.
    There is a limit to this magic.
    It is like a machine. A machine can run forever in theory, but its parts rust over time.
    Parts rust. Cogwheels slide out of place. Programs become obsolete.

    "[line3]No, no. I am not immortal, Assassin.
    My body rots. It will rot no matter how many times I get a new body. It will rot no matter what I do.
    This new body has begun to rot already.
    Can you begin to understand the discomfort and disgrace of rotting alive[line3]the despair upon learning that your body is not human?"

    "Why does it rot? Are the worms not able to make a proper body?"

    "Haha, that is not true. The worms are lively. They have no problem as a body. From the start, I became a parasite in grief over my aging body. They serve perfectly as a body.
    I chose this method to prolong my life forever while retaining my humility."

    "...I am even more confused. Is that all you can manage, even with the power to perfectly preserve your body? First of all, why are you taking the form of an old man?
    If you are able to shape the flesh into any form, you should be able to take any appearance."

    "That is a good question. Then let me ask you. Let's say something that lost its original body tries to reproduce its body with its powers.
    In that case[line3]what do you think restores the body to its original form?"
    "[line3]The body records itself. Even after it is burned or cut, the body is able to restore its original appearance, because there is an internal blueprint."

    "Yes. A body's composition is recorded in its genes. But it is different in my case. I lost my body, the place where my composition was recorded. I can no longer use that blueprint to recreate my body.
    In that case[line3]what do you think records my body and gives it form?"

    "[line8]"
    It is obvious.
    The soul.
    It is not the law of the physical world, but something of the higher order, the record of all the bodies within the concept of the astral world.
    ...Yes, if one has the soul, one should be able to reconstruct their body even if the original body and genes have been lost.
    So in other words, this old magus is...

    "[line3]I see. You keep your soul alive, while taking the bodies of other creatures as your own[line3]so that is the trick behind your immortality.
    That must be why you cannot turn yourself into anything else. What you are keeping alive is your soul, not your body.
    So that is why you cannot take any other form but that of Matou Zouken?"


    "Of course. I am not taking form as an old man because I want to.
    ...Look, this is the only form I can create. And it is a poor creation that rots away unless I exchange it periodically. I used to be able to last fifty years before I had to exchange my body, but I have to exchange it every few months now.
    ...Who can understand the pain I feel as I rot away? Do not misunderstand, Assassin of this generation. Do not call such a thing immortality[line4]"

    Irritation can be heard in the voice of the old magus.
    It has been three days since Assassin's summoning.
    He finally sees the true nature of his summoner.

    "...I understand now. So what is rotting is not your body, but..."
    "...Yes, my soul is rotting.
    Time even affects ethereal bodies. Therefore, my physical body will rot. It is natural for my body to rot if my soul, the blueprint of my body, is rotten."

    "Hm[line3]so that is why you seek the Holy Grail.
    ...No wonder you are angry. Such eternity must be more painful to you than those who have no idea of eternity."
    "Exactly.
    ...My body rots. I need to be freed from this pain, from this poison violating deep into my bones...!
    The Holy Grail exists for that purpose. I have persisted for that purpose."

    "...Right. I do not want to die. I want to live. It is dreadful to think that I will disappear from this world...!
    To escape this fate, I have lived for hundreds of years, devouring the flesh of thousands...! Do you understand, master of the mountain? I hate myself for turning myself into worms. I hate being the only one who rots away. I hate all humans for being given bodies as a matter of course[line3]!"

    As pseudo-nerves, magic circuits exist as part of the body. As part of the body, magic circuits are a piece of information that is recorded in the soul. 肉体の遺伝子ではなく、魂の遺伝子というか。The Third Magic simply allows for the latter to not deteriorate in the way Zouken's did.

  8. #74708
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    That means everything that happens to the body is recorded in the soul, it does not mean the Magic Circuit organ is specifically a part of the soul.

    Seems like only tangentially related. Magic Circuits aren't even mentioned there.

  9. #74709
    Either magic circuits are part of the body's composition, and therefore recorded in the soul, or they aren't.

  10. #74710
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Sure, but that's literally my argument?

    Like, they're a part of the body so they get recorded by the soul.

  11. #74711
    Correct, I'm not seeing the difficulty here.

  12. #74712
    I don't see a conflict between the two points you're making.

  13. #74713
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Thanks you all, this helped to clear up some of my confusion

  14. #74714
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    I mean, they are kinda related to the body. Like, Shirou turns bits of his nerves into magic circuits or something, and Kayneth is almost completely paralyzed by his circuits being destroyed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly

  15. #74715
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Byegod's Avatar
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    The argument i guess was the degree there in or related to the soul. Though I do wonder how much trouble circuit transplants are for say... the more odd magi who have animal parts like the ones seen in case files...., that cant be better then normal organ transplant rejection lol

  16. #74716
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    I'm still in the camp of paisen having "Regression to the Age of Gods" type of "circuits" like Beo-kun (same type of entity), Arcueid, Tiamat, Ishtar. So trying to apply magi circuits lore to her is pointless, especially when these Incarnated Elemental's Body is not fixed, can be freely dictated by the Elemental's will. Plus base on Nasu's statement about the Sirius Light being an unnecessary addition to her already perfect body, it is safe to assume that it is attached to whichever body she is using at the time instead.




  17. #74717
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Byegod's Avatar
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    Actually isnt beo just a incarnated soul, so we could also argue bout cirucits in relation to that lmao

  18. #74718
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    I'm still in the camp of paisen having "Regression to the Age of Gods" type of "circuits" like Beo-kun (same type of entity), Arcueid, Tiamat, Ishtar. So trying to apply magi circuits lore to her is pointless, especially when these Incarnated Elemental's Body is not fixed, can be freely dictated by the Elemental's will. Plus base on Nasu's statement about the Sirius Light being an unnecessary addition to her already perfect body, it is safe to assume that it is attached to whichever body she is using at the time instead.
    She most probably does, since she's an Elemental.

    Not sure if it's all too relevant in this case. They managed to get Sirius Light onto her, so they seem somewhat analogous to Magic Circuits in that sense at least. I don't imagine there's much of a difference because of 神代回帰
    Last edited by Petrikow; June 26th, 2022 at 07:58 AM.

  19. #74719
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Actually isnt beo just a incarnated soul, so we could also argue bout cirucits in relation to that lmao
    Nope. Saying it's "just" incarnated soul is severely missing the big difference between them and humans.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    She most probably does, since she's an Elemental.

    Not sure if it's all too relevant in this case. They managed to get Sirius Light onto her, so they seem somewhat analogous to Magic Circuits in that sense at least. I don't imagine there's much of a difference because of 神代回帰
    This was why I brought Ishtar up yesterday. She was using a magus' (Rin) body as a vessel for her soul as a divine spirit. And she was shown to be able to use TWO different circuit systems. In the Babylonia anime ep 16, when she got transferred mana from Fujimaru, you can see Rin's circuits glowing blue during that fight with corrupted Ushiwakamaru. However she doesn't use Rin's magic circuits at all when she activates Regression to the Age of Gods in the Underworld Xmas event, which is supposed to be her "magic circuits" as a god. Instead wild red patterns appear on her body. That means these 2 are separate systems. Now Yu Meiren was pretending to be a human magi. So I'd say she could easily create a magi-like body with magic circuits and the SL can be attached to those circuits.




  20. #74720
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    I dunno, I suppose it's a possibility.

    Feels like an overly difficult way of explaining it, even if its something that's possible.
    There are no references to her doing it, after all. And I don't think you particularly need it as an explanation, so it feels like an unnecessary layer of complication.

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