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Thread: Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

  1. #74421
    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinetree View Post
    Didn't Beast VI/L/R/S/G debunk that.
    No, having 4 splits for VI actually means all of them fit. Assuming 5 isn't split too, that is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
    Quote Originally Posted by Neir View Post
    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kateikyo View Post
    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  2. #74422
    The Wolf King Lobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelRey View Post
    but arent these two pairs of Beast VI from different timelines?
    That would mean the qlipoth theory holds per timeline
    No, VI is the one Beast that has been explicitly jumping in between timelines like Arthur and Musashi do.
    Arthur just said on Arcade that there is an order for their manifestation, first R & L then G & S follow

  3. #74423
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    The talk we had earlier about 濾過異聞史現象 (on NA: Felling Theoretical Phenomenon) in relation to 剪定事象 (on NA: Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon) as well as their translations really got me thinking more about what the hell is going on here.

    At first I was just thinking about the whole theoretical thing, but eventually I realized this misses the point. The real reason why especially the translation for 剪定事象 is bad is not because of that, it's because of "phenomenon".

    剪定事象 is not a phenomenon. It is not an "actor". It is not "something that happens"

    It is "something that has happened".

    When Arai first translated this in 2016, he rendered it as "Pruned Events" (and 編纂事象 as "Compiled Events"). This is the correct way of thinking about this word.

    At some point (for example: in Moonlight/Lostroom's materials translation) people started calling it a "phenomenon". This is the incorrect way of thinking about this word.

    For whatever reason, it appears this is what has stuck, and it causes ridiculous problems whenever it appears. The NA localization, perhaps inspired by earlier translations (the above, for example) took the same stance. This creates some truly bizarre translations.

    JP:
    マシュ
    わたしたちの歴史に残る宮本武蔵とは異なる、
    剪定事象の存在かもしれない、女性の宮本武蔵さん。

    NA TL:
    Mash
    Unlike the historical Miyamoto Musashi, this one you encountered was a woman.
    Perhaps from a world of Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon.

    MY TL:
    Mashu
    Unlike the Miyamoto Musashi from our history, she's perhaps something from a Pruned Event; a female Miyamoto Musashi.

    Unlike the official TL, we don't need to add a bunch of words to make sense of this all of a sudden. Because there is no such thing as a "world of Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon". 剪定事象 are worlds in and off themselves. They're "possibilities that have been removed"

    Another example:

    JP:
    (Narration)
    後世に続く事なき剪定事象に属する『別人』として、
    彼は、我知らず多くの世界を渡ってきた。

    NA TL:
    (Narration)
    With his name never going down in history, this separate version of Amakusa Shirou from a
    Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon traveled across many worlds unbeknownst to us.

    MY TL:
    (Narration)
    As a changed man belonging to a Pruned Event that could not continue onto the future,
    he unwittingly passed through many different worlds.

    Partially because of this term, and partially because what appears to be a lacking translation, this one has been completely mangled.

    One last example from Shimousa...

    JP:
    天草四郎
    穢土城の本格起動が成された時こそ
    この世界は終わる! 泡の如くして儚き剪定事象
    いずれと言わず刹那のうちに暗黒へ落としてくれる!
    そして! すぐさま穢土城ごと異郷の地(カルデア)へ
    そう、我が復讐は此処で終わりはせぬ!
    カルデア在る編纂事象、正しき人理をさえ砕こうぞ!
    この異なる結果、敗れしものたちの未来を、
    必ずやまことの世に浮上させよう!

    NA TL:
    Amakusa Shirou
    Once Onriedo Castle's activation is complete,
    the end of this world will be close at hand!
    In an instant, this frail alternate history shall be consumed by darkness! And from there...this entire castle shall travel to the distant land of Chaldea!
    My revenge will not end here! I shall destroy the Chronicle Theoretical Phenomenon where Chaldea resides; indeed, it shall even destroy the true humanity itself!
    Thus shall I bring about a future
    for those history has left behind!

    MY TL:
    Amakusa Shirou
    Once my [Onri]edo Castle's full activation has been achieved this world will come to an end!
    In an instant impossible to tell when, it will sink this ephemeral Pruned Event into darkness!
    And then! Immediately arrive together with [Onri]edo Castle in the foreign land of Chaldea! Indeed! My revenge will not end here!
    I will destroy proper Human Order; the Compiled Event in which Chaldea resides!
    I shall make sure this differing outcome; this future of the defeated, emerges onto the real world!

    Now you avoid this odd "frail alternate history" and even provides some extra context to what the hell he's trying to do here.

    Here's how its described the first time in Part 2:

    JP:
    ダ・ヴィンチ
    基本軸である『幹』から離れすぎた世界は、
    たとえ理想郷であろうと『打ち切り』になる。
    これを魔術世界では剪定事象といい、
    この機能がある事で、我々の宇宙は今も問題なく
    広がっている、と魔術協会では考えられている。

    NA TL:
    Da Vinci
    If a world, even a utopia, strays too far from its base axis, it gets the clippers, so to speak.
    In the magecraft world,
    it's called the Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon...
    ...and it's what allows our universe to keep expanding unimpeded. That's the Mage's Association stance, anyway.

    MY TL:
    Da Vinci
    Worlds that stray too far from this primary axial stem—even those that are utopias—are cut down.
    In the world of magecraft, these are called Pruned Events.
    Within the Mages Association, it is thought that because of this function, our universe can safely expand, even now.

    Because of the perception around this as a "phenomenon" they've bound together the second and third line in a way that's a bit awkward.

    Another example from early on in Part 2:

    JP:
    宮本武蔵
    ここは異聞帯。
    違う世界……剪定事象がなぜか続いているロシア、と。

    NA TL:
    Musashi
    This place is a Lostbelt...
    A different world where the Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon is still taking place.

    MY TL:
    Musashi
    This place is a Lostbelt; a different world...
    Russia, a Pruned Event that for some reason is still ongoing.

    Now this one is a banger, and where you can see how this "incorrect" conception of 剪定事象 has REALLY confused the translator. There is no "Pruning Phenomenon" that is somehow "still taking place"; the Pruned Event IS the world, and for some reason is still going on, when normally it would be pruned!

    There are of course way more example (剪定事象 appears in 21 different places in this script) but I think that's enough to get the point of how this translation has misled people.

    But then how does all this parallel world stuff work, and why did it get so confusing to begin with. That's probably a harder question to answer properly, but let's try, shall we:

    Fundamentally, you can view the parallel worlds as belonging to a central stem. This is the base unit. This "stem" is one world. Upon this stem, some events are Pruned, and some are Compiled. Compiled Events are many in numbers, so eventually these "branches" are "trimmed" and compiled into a Quantum Timelock (which is called a Human Order Cornerstone more generally).

    The Pruned Events are not a part of this process. Pruned Events are discarded immediately as soon as it becomes apparent they hold only one future. To become a Pruned Event means that the future there is so certain, that it cannot birth more possibilities (more parallel worlds), but instead only heads towards one determined future.

    It appears many people have the conception that these processes (Pruning/Compiling) are the so called 剪定・編纂事象 rather than what these terms actually mean: the result of Pruning/Compiling.

    And like always; thanks for coming to Petrikow's TED Talk.
    Last edited by Petrikow; June 14th, 2022 at 02:12 PM.

  4. #74424
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Post script:

    剪定事象 (Pruned Events) is probably named in style of the mathematical conception of 事象 (event). This is a term used in statistics and probability to designate outcomes of chance. For example: if you toss a coin, you have 2 possible events: 1. it lands heads, 2. it lands tails.

    People like to talk about Dependent and Independent Events in this field, and in Japanese those are called 従属事象 and 独立事象 respectively. This way of forming words around "events" is exactly the way 剪定事象 (Pruned Events) and 編纂事象 (Compiled Events) are formed!

    Perhaps we could call it extra thematic given that these were introduced into the franchise surrounding the character of Archimedes, a famous mathematician.
    Last edited by Petrikow; June 12th, 2022 at 04:17 PM.

  5. #74425
    Aw nah, calling it now Archimedes is going to be an Apostle of the Villain God once again.

  6. #74426
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sione View Post
    Aw nah, calling it now Archimedes is going to be an Apostle of the Villain God once again.
    For what it's worth, he'd probably do it.

  7. #74427
    夜属 Nightkin Delastogos's Avatar
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    Ya boy is (maybe) coming

  8. #74428
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delastogos View Post
    Ya boy is (maybe) coming
    Maybe he'll show up at some point.

    Maybe he'll even infodump stuff about Lostbelts.

    But I don't think he'll have much of a role.
    Last edited by Petrikow; June 12th, 2022 at 05:36 PM.

  9. #74429
    The Wolf King Lobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sione View Post
    Aw nah, calling it now Archimedes is going to be an Apostle of the Villain God once again.
    As long as the summonable version has his pre-Sefar original personality talk about in the Extella mats at the least......

  10. #74430
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    As long as the summonable version has his pre-Sefar original personality talk about in the Extella mats at the least......
    So his Link personality, then?

    EDIT: Also, it seems the confusion Petri posted about is the result of the localized terms causing a change from a noun to a verb but the editors didn't properly rewrite some sentences to have it make equal sense with the original line, unfortunately it seems like it's too late to change it.
    Last edited by Catastor; June 12th, 2022 at 05:09 PM.

  11. #74431
    夜属 Nightkin Delastogos's Avatar
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    He's the only Extella character that isn't in the game, right?

  12. #74432
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    He is in the game, but because Link is not a true sequel (whatever is going in there who the hell knows) the whole Velber thing just gets ignored.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Catastor View Post
    EDIT: Also, it seems the confusion Petri posted about is the result of the localized terms causing a change from a noun to a verb but the editors didn't properly rewrite some sentences to have it make equal sense with the original line, unfortunately it seems like it's too late to change it.
    They're both nouns, just nouns of a different character.

  13. #74433
    夜属 Nightkin Delastogos's Avatar
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    I meant in FGO tho.

  14. #74434
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delastogos View Post
    I meant in FGO tho.
    If you want to count him there's also Karl der Grosse (Ruler). And Larva Altera.

  15. #74435
    夜属 Nightkin Delastogos's Avatar
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    Karl does seem unlikely at this point, especially because of Charlie's third ascension.

  16. #74436
    Don't @ me if your fanfic doesn't even have Shirou/Illya shipping k thnx ItsaRandomUsername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delastogos View Post
    Ya boy is (maybe) coming
    For extra kicks, I wanna see him come as a duo with Diaster Idol again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The suffering of Mathman and the dumb-dumbness of Liz is my sustenance.
    McJon01: We all know that the real reason Archer would lose to Rider is because the events of his own Holy Grail War left him with a particular weakness toward "older sister" types.
    My Fanfics. Read 'em. Or not.



  17. #74437
    Ph. D. Herod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaRandomUsername View Post
    For extra kicks, I wanna see him come as a duo with Diaster Idol again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The suffering of Mathman and the dumb-dumbness of Liz is my sustenance.
    Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.

  18. #74438
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Archimedes being an Apostle is a very likely chance indeed, considering his motivation in Extella. Might be Alien World's Apostle as a pattern when Alien World's Moriarty being Math Professor.


  19. #74439
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    Archimedes is joke event material. If he doesn't get added in a joke event, preferably Halloween, surrounded by Lizes then they've failed the character.

  20. #74440
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    So based on Petri's explanation, a Theoretical Phenomenon refers to an end result instead of a process. Got it.


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