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Thread: Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

  1. #75621
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    Hard to say that when other stories aren't exactly being continued like FGO just to show off the reach of the Incineration. Besides, pretty sure the Prillya event implies that Goetia burnt a lot more than just GO things when Mash is asking where Illya came from and using specific terminology to guess at her situation.
    I didn't see anywhere in the Prillya storyline saying anything about the Prillya world being incinerated. I mean there should be a Goetia in other timelines outside FGO trying to enact his ritual thing as well. For him to burn Prillya verse there would have to be a Prillya Goetia unless you're saying there is only one Goetia in the entire Nasuverse multiverse, but that's clearly not the case.
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  2. #75622
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    I mean there should be a Goetia in other timelines outside FGO trying to enact his ritual thing as well.
    Goetia indeed does try to enact his incineration plan in all timelines, however it does not always come to fruition. In fact, it is kinda implied that only the Goetia of FGO mobile managed to get the plan going. Such as if the "Ancient I" being mentioned by Arcueid in MB is a reference to Goetia, then Goetia failed in Tsukihime long ago, probably due to the weaker human order (his grand plan has the exact same name as Aoko's Last Arc move). Meanwhile in Fate worlds, human order is strong and thus allow him to gather what is needed to do what he wants. And even still, if Lev kills himself in 2015 then his plan would also fail. His entire plan that has been carefully planned rely on a lot of factors, such as the demon gods being allowed to manifest in designated eras through the bloodlines of mages, Lev's decision in 2015 to even start. And not only that, he was rushing the plan most likely due to knowing the alien god is coming.
    For him to burn Prillya verse there would have to be a Prillya Goetia unless you're saying there is only one Goetia in the entire Nasuverse multiverse, but that's clearly not the case.
    Not necessarily. Beasts have Independent Manifestation which allows them to manifest in any timeline when a condition is met. Tiamat sent her Alter Ego to FGO arcade world to help fighting Beast VI/S using that power, even when it confused the hell out of the FGO Arcade Chaldea members who never met her b4. Proto Merlin arrives in FGO mobile world also through that skill, and Koyanskaya freely moves between alternate worlds. The manifestation seems to be able to overwrite the one in the destination universe even, like how Zepar downloaded CCC Kiara to FGO and overwritten FGO Kiara, or how worlds Sliding worked in the Moon Cell. So even if there is another Goetia, the most successful one aka FGO Goetia probably would overwrite the others.

  3. #75623
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    Not necessarily. Beasts have Independent Manifestation which allows them to manifest in any timeline when a condition is met. Tiamat sent her Alter Ego to FGO arcade world to help fighting Beast VI/S using that power, even when it confused the hell out of the FGO Arcade Chaldea members who never met her b4. Proto Merlin arrives in FGO mobile world also through that skill, and Koyanskaya freely moves between alternate worlds. The manifestation seems to be able to overwrite the one in the destination universe even, like how Zepar downloaded CCC Kiara to FGO and overwritten FGO Kiara, or how worlds Sliding worked in the Moon Cell. So even if there is another Goetia, the most successful one aka FGO Goetia probably would overwrite the others.
    Yeah but that would mean he'd have to take the time to travel to that specified timeline in order to tamper with it directly. And it doesn't seem like he did things like that.
    It's not like Prillya verse is going to be incinerated as a direct result of FGO world being incinerated. It seemed to me like KnK was part of the FGO world which is why it got burned. At least for that specific event, it's clearly fanservice.
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  4. #75624
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    Yeah but that would mean he'd have to take the time to travel to that specified timeline in order to tamper with it directly. And it doesn't seem like he did things like that.
    It's not like Prillya verse is going to be incinerated as a direct result of FGO world being incinerated. It seemed to me like KnK was part of the FGO world which is why it got burned. At least for that specific event, it's clearly fanservice.
    He doesn't need to time travel to every single timeline, since his target is the multiverse system itself, namely the spacetime axis represented as the time tree and its core system - the Human Order Foundations, also known as the Quantum Time Locks. He sent his seven grails to 7 of these locks and caused enough chaos to the point the lock is destroyed. The locks are a constant across ALL timelines, keeping history of the era it locked constant and unchanging, because those are the foundations for all timelines to grow from. By targeting the locks, he doesn't even need to be present at any timelines or any history. It's like you only need to chop parts of the tree's roots and the whole tree along with its branches collapse. In fact, he only shows up in London singularity for the lulz, the chaos cause by his grails being given to people of the eras he sent them to are already enough to destroy every single locks, if it wasn't for Chaldea's interference.

  5. #75625
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Yeah but if you're talking about trees then Prillya clearly takes place in a different tree altogether. Same for worlds like Extra and Tsukihime. Extra's time-locks are ran by the Moon Cell and Tsukihime might not even have those sorts of mechanics? Same for Prillya which the author has stated has different rules.
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  6. #75626
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    Yeah but if you're talking about trees then Prillya clearly takes place in a different tree altogether. Same for worlds like Extra and Tsukihime. Extra's time-locks are ran by the Moon Cell and Tsukihime might not even have those sorts of mechanics? Same for Prillya which the author has stated has different rules.
    Well not quite, because we don't know the full extent of these timelines. Rules being a bit different in general has no real impact in the system, since the timelocks dictate only important events that happened which shape human history in a grand scale, everything else and every differences between timelines have zero impact on the matter, and that is why targeting them is a great move by Goetia. You don't need Prillya to have the same magecraft rules as FSN or FGO or Tsukihime for "Britain being doomed" or "Humans separate from the gods" to happen. Time locks being ran by Moon Cell is literally because of the fact that it gained administrative rights to the Earth, as "Type-Moon". Moon Cell existing or not didn't change the fact that "Sefar wiped the floor with the gods on Earth in 12.000 BCE". Tsukihime not mentioning the system doesn't mean it does not apply, as there was no instance of it being any relevant over there as oppose to Extella or FGO. Saying with confidence that yeah they are all on different trees has the exact same weight as me saying they are on the same tree.

  7. #75627
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    Well not quite, because we don't know the full extent of these timelines. Rules being a bit different in general has no real impact in the system, since the timelocks dictate only important events that happened which shape human history in a grand scale, everything else and every differences between timelines have zero impact on the matter, and that is why targeting them is a great move by Goetia. You don't need Prillya to have the same magecraft rules as FSN or FGO or Tsukihime for "Britain being doomed" or "Humans separate from the gods" to happen. Time locks being ran by Moon Cell is literally because of the fact that it gained administrative rights to the Earth, as "Type-Moon". Moon Cell existing or not didn't change the fact that "Sefar wiped the floor with the gods on Earth in 12.000 BCE". Tsukihime not mentioning the system doesn't mean it does not apply, as there was no instance of it being any relevant over there as oppose to Extella or FGO. Saying with confidence that yeah they are all on different trees has the exact same weight as me saying they are on the same tree.
    But there are some rather major differences even as far back, like Prillya's Pandora not opening the box in AoG. In Tsukihime you have CM cursing Human Order and the Ancestors some time in the past resulting in some major changes. What if you get worlds that just don't adhere to proper history? We can't be certain human history played out the same in those worlds as it did in FGO. Would that means those timelines are categorized as Lost Belts?
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  8. #75628
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Part 04

    You may now sear into your eyes; the beginning of the real madness.

  9. #75629
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    But there are some rather major differences even as far back, like Prillya's Pandora not opening the box in AoG. In Tsukihime you have CM cursing Human Order and the Ancestors some time in the past resulting in some major changes. What if you get worlds that just don't adhere to proper history? We can't be certain human history played out the same in those worlds as it did in FGO. Would that means those timelines are categorized as Lost Belts?
    You partially answered the questions yourself. Yes, timelines playing so drastically differently from what human history wants to proceed, are pruned. Like that is literally the entire purpose of it. And the Lostbelts are those pruned timelines being brought back.

    But just because you play a bit differently from the general thing the locks dictate, it doesn't mean you are instantly pruned. The Moon Cell existing, the changes caused by CM and the TAs in Tsuki worlds, Prototype, Prillya, Requiem...etc, while resulting in huge differences between these worlds compare to the others, still did not reach the point of either "making humanity advance far too much" or "completely fucked over humanity in the next 100 years", so they are not pruned. The system is flexible enough to allow differences in the multiverse, but not every differences, as the solar system does not have enough energy to sustain infinite number of timelines.

  10. #75630
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    You partially answered the questions yourself. Yes, timelines playing so drastically differently from what human history wants to proceed, are pruned. Like that is literally the entire purpose of it. And the Lostbelts are those pruned timelines being brought back.

    But just because you play a bit differently from the general thing the locks dictate, it doesn't mean you are instantly pruned. The Moon Cell existing, the changes caused by CM and the TAs in Tsuki worlds, Prototype, Prillya, Requiem...etc, while resulting in huge differences between these worlds compare to the others, still did not reach the point of either "making humanity advance far too much" or "completely fucked over humanity in the next 100 years", so they are not pruned. The system is flexible enough to allow differences in the multiverse, but not every differences, as the solar system does not have enough energy to sustain infinite number of timelines.
    Hmm, I see, makes sense. I wonder if part of CMs plan was also to avoid triggering that pruning system, but still allow things to continue in a way that benefits him. Many villains in the series seem to try and find ways to get around those locks it seems, like Archimedes.
    Though there seems to also be scenarios where it cannot activate. Luminary Arc for example (said to be a world bad-end). Pretty sure that results in Human Order being eaten. Might also be a result of it not being strong enough.
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  11. #75631
    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    To me, the simplest argument for the Incineration affecting the whole time tree is just to think about what Goetia is actually doing.

    He wants to return to the beginning of the planet, so in that sense he wishes to travel from point A (the present) to point B (the beginning of the planet and presumably the timeline itself) in a "straight" line.
    But even if he does, the world won't let him do any actual changes because of the safeguards (QTLs), so he has to remove the QTLs as well. Doing so—"lifting the pins" on the texture, as it were—results in the timeline (or the "fabric") unravelling because nothing's holding it in place anymore. This allows him to make the changes he wants to (burn it all up for his steam-powered engine) but it also has a side-effect which needs to stretch beyond the single timeline.
    Up to this point we've simply viewed what's happening from within one timeline, but if we reverse the perspective, and look at the whole multiverse as a bunch of timelines going from bottom to top (like a tree, obviously), and we follow Goetia's path from the top of his line towards the bottom, we would have to see that every time he passes a QTL, every other timeline is "unraveled" in the exact same way as his "home timeline". This as a result of the QTL being a lock across the trunk, not the timeline itself (as explained in Extella). Or, to visualize, if the timelines are threads, then QTLs are not pins in individual threads, they're clamps across all the threads at once, keeping them all together. That's why you have the whole thing where if you stray too far from the "main trunk", you get pruned regardless of whether it's stagnated, because you're not being "held on" by the clamp.
    So, effectively, what Goetia would be doing when he destroys a QTL "in his timeline" is that he would just stand on one edge of the trunk and throw the clamp off. Hence, Goetia's actions affect all adjacent timelines, not just the FGO one.

    The reason why it wouldn't affect other "trunks" (the works that are so diverged they're effectively their own multiverses, like Prillya and Prototype), would then be because they're held on by their own clamps, so Goetia lifting one from one bunch of threads wouldn't magically cause another clamp elsewhere to fly off as well.

    I guess looking at it like this, there can be an argument made that Goetia "only" removes the QTLs in the other timelines then (which would still massively fuck shit up since now all of a sudden you're able to freely change the past, which if nothing else, would likely immediately get you pruned once the singularities are fixed), but imo that feels contrived since you'd have to say that he has these sources of energy and not using them.

    Anyway, that's how I look at it.
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  12. #75632
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Man, you guys will be happy when I explain how this works in the next chapter.

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