@Ivan
it's a profile, I need to keep it somewhat brief. As for his personality, I'm not sure how you've misread it as you have. He's quite obviously an empathic person.
as for the knight issue, no, you've completely misunderstood the point. It's not about what he can be, it's about attempting the impossible. Unlike Kiritsugu and Shirou however, the conclusion is different.
Dude, it was still long with his full powers in it. If this is already keeping it short, then how much more the longer version?Originally Posted by lantzblades
Moreover, the profile still comprised more powers than personality. That's not a good sign for a character. This is a digression and partly a boast, but my character profiles are more focused on their personalities and backgrounds than abilities. That's because, in a story, those are the most important ones, more than the abilities. The backgrounds influence and shape their personalities and, in turn, that makes them interesting in the narrative.
At what I see from your profile, it implicitly shows that Satoshi is less of a narrative character and more of a force that aims to defeat opposition easily, much like a higher-level RPG character. He was made to win, not to be in a story. And struggles are the heart of a story.
And if this is about attempting the impossible similar to the Emiya father-son tandem but having a different conclusion, then the message it brings to me is that for you to do the impossible, you have to get the blessing of divine beings and be basically be a literal superhuman. That's how it sounds to me. It is a heroic fantasy of pure power, and an empty one at that.
Last edited by Ivan The Mouse; December 17th, 2015 at 05:13 PM.
@Ivan
again that's the Superman fallacy, he's strong so his struggle is invalid, he's not a character because powers.
as for his personality, I kept it short to avoid misunderstandings and I'll let his actions speak the rest of the way. His background is riddled with so many details it would take seven pages to explain it all here. Rather than do that I'm going to given relevant information in the other profiles such as Shirou, Archer, Rin and so on. It's far easier to read that way.
as for the impossible, no, that's not it. The message is far different, as is the goal, it's not Shirou or Kiritsugus goal at all.
I think if you want to sell people on this character, you should write actual stories featuring him as opposed to "character bios" which are basically just a long list of haxed abilities. I mean, absolute immortality? Seriously? Meaning he can't die even if his entire body is destroyed down to the last atom? I don't mind overpowered characters necessarily (see Dark Schneider from Bastard!! for an example of someone like that done right. Or Izayoi from Mondaiji-Tachi.), but then you're going to have to think up equally overpowered opponents for him to go up against in order to maintain even some semblance of drama and at your guy's level, I'm honestly not sure how you can do that. Maybe if you pitted him against foes like Reynhard from Dies Irae or something...
The point is, haxed characters aren't necessarily bad in of themselves but if all you're presenting is this sheet with a fairly bland personality section and tons and tons of overpowered abilities with unclear balancing, then you can understand people will feel rather dubious about it (yours truly included). I haven't really read any of your stuff so I can't say for sure, but it definitely rings some alarm bells in my mind. (For example, why does he have Superman's shirt? Does Superman exist in your version of the Nasuverse? Is it supposed to be a joke?)
So for the tl;dr version, very powerful characters don't automatically suck but it does take a (at least reasonably) good writer to make them work and not degenerate into Mary-Sue author wanking. Heck, I'm planning to have some fairly ridiculous power-levels in my own original-fiction story eventually, but I'm going to build up to that level gradually and make sure to hand my protagonist a whole bunch of defeats and trials along the way. Also avoid doing any gratuitous guro stuff like the Sakura milkshake incident I've heard of. Just... don't. It's inappropriate and frankly lazy writing, just resorting to the biggest 'shocking' thing you can imagine. And yes, Nasu does that sort of thing too at times (hello rapeworms) but that doesn't make it good writing.
You seem like a pretty okay guy honestly. I highly doubt you deserve all the hate thrown at you (not speaking about this thread in particular), but at the same time I can understand why your work seems to get such a negative reception.
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With regard to your repeated invocations of "Superman fallacy", I actually don't like Supes all that much (probably one of my least favorite superheroes), for that very reason. He's so powerful almost nobody can scratch him which makes most of his conflicts either boring (because nobody can hurt him) or contrived (because the author has to keep thinking of reasons he can't instantly solve everything). Hence why cartoons and such that have him in a larger team end up nerfing his powers significantly (still very strong, but not literally invulnerable).
Last edited by RoydGolden; December 17th, 2015 at 08:12 PM.
@roydgolden
the Nasuverse is our earth, at least in theory. That means that comics, manga, anime and their respective merchandise exist. The shirt in question is just that. The same one you could buy at any comic shop.
as for his opponents, that's again the superman fallacy. Superman has plenty of enemies and even friends who can fight on his level, people forget that all the time, further as is the case in the Nasuverse, situational combat is the master of the day.
as for the "milkshake" it was a horrifying death, and, while I admit over the top by a few degrees, I'd still prefer everytime to exceed the bar rather than not. That scene yes could use a mechanical rewrite but I can't be sure I won't overcompensate and turn it into something just as unbelievable. It needs to be a horrific death, not a normal one.
All I can say to that is "Good luck". Good luck at making opponents who can challenge a guy who's literally immortal, part dragon, part fairy, can use practically any form of magic, is a super martial arts master on top of everything and that's not even all! I mean seriously, all that does kind of scream "Mary Sue" (especially when it's all presented at once like this instead of things he gradually obtains over the course of the story).
With regards to the "Milkshake", just because you want to portray it as a horrific event doesn't mean you have to show it in every gruesome detail. Sometimes what's left unsaid is more effective then what is, after all. Describing it like that just makes it come across as schlocky, which I presume isn't your intent. And why can't it be a "normal death" exactly? Wouldn't it be enough for Satoshi to see Sakura killed in front of his eyes by one of his worst enemies while he's helpless to prevent it? Isn't that enough without adding gorn to it as well?
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And why is his Reality Marble called "Scared Court"? Did you mean "Sacred"?
@roydgolden
it appears that auto correct named it as such, I'll edit it later.
plenty of characters can beat him, power doesn't mean anything to be honest. Few characters in the Nasuverse are below him outright. Kill and defeat are two very different things.
the martial arts bit is just Nasuverse canon about dragons.
That's just it, Gilgamesh isn't his enemy, not at the time. This is how he becomes Satoshi's enemy. He can't be a regular death because Satoshi is mature enough to handle death, it must be terrible because they need him to break. And for the record he was not made to drink anything but her blood. The milkshake idea was someone misunderstanding it.
"Plenty of characters can beat him"? Name one (other than ORT, maybe full-power Arcueid and the like). And why would dragons know all about human martial arts? How would they even be able to use them?
Also, "mature enough to handle death" ≠ being perfectly blasé about your loved ones being slaughtered in front of your eyes. Dude. That alone would probably be enough to break most tough-willed people. Honestly, if you don't think that alone is enough to provoke a convincing emotional reaction from Satoshi/the reader, then you really need to double check your writing skills. Making it more graphic is not going to help (although at least it wasn't quite as bad as I'd assumed).
@roydgolden
Sion, Dust, Shirou, Archer, Arc at thirty, Gilgamesh, kotomine, lancer (both night and zero) Akiha, Kohaku, Ciel, Zouken. Need I go on? I can if you want.
by break I mean insanity. As in full blown, you now qualify as Berserker.
the bit about dragons is Nasuverse canon, not my idea.
Hmm... maybe he's not quite as overpowered as I thought, in that case. I'd have to look at fics with him in it to really say for sure. Though f you want to convince people he's not overpowered, I'd suggest not writing a bio consisting of little other than all his ridiculous-sounding powers one after another and a Personality section skimpier then Ushiwakamaru's outfit. It comes across as very Mary-Sue-esque (I know you don't like that word, but whatever) "Here are all the powers of super awesome OC who's related to all the important canon character (another big red-flag, by the way) plz don't steal". I mean, most of his abilities aren't even that bad on their own (though I think the immortality, as well as being part-fairy and part-dragon is overdoing it a bit) it's just in conjunction that they look rather... intimididating, is putting it politely.
If you want to make us like this guy, you have to start small. Build him up. Show when he's weak and seemingly powerless. Then the audience will actually be satisfied when he develops some new awesome power and saves the day. Don't just have a practically omnipotent hero stomping all over everything. To paraphrase from a book I'm reading "Real heroism is the will to keep fighting even though you're defeated before you even start". If you can't put your hero into those kind of situations then you don't have a hero, you have a God. Gods can be worshipped, but they can never be empathized with (speaking figuratively here, nothing wrong with having a lower-case deity as a main-character as long as you give them struggles befitting of a deity).
And I still don't get why seeing his loved one murdered in front of him wouldn't be enough to trigger BERSERKER RAGE on it's own. You may think you've already shown stuff that bad before and need to "one-up yourself". If so, don't. Down that road lies madness and having to think of worse and worse atrocities for the latest Big Bad to commit to prove how totally evil and unlike the last Big Bad they are. In other words, Akame Ga Kill. (Despite what I'm saying, I actually liked the AGK anime a fair deal but that's probably because it wisely trimmed out a lot of the more gratuitous stuff from the manga)
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So yeah, if you can't portray a death, the freaking irrevocable loss of a human life from the world, and a murder at that, in a way that carries across how terrible a thing it is then I question how desensitized to violence you've become through fiction and the like (I know I'm probably one to talk, but still). I don't imagine watching a loved one being murdered is something that hurts any less just because you've lost people before (not speaking from personal experience, thankfully). And it's not like Satoshi's some kind of super jaded mercenary who's watched everyone he cares about get killed over and over again or something (or at least, I don't think so based on how you've described him).
Last edited by RoydGolden; December 17th, 2015 at 08:11 PM.
@roydgolden
provoking rage and madness are two different things. The former, yes would be triggered by a simple death. Madness on the other hand requires someone to be pushed beyond their threshold of reason. In this case, not just death, not just loss and failure but an end which is outright ridiculous enough to make his consciousness retreat from reality.
his journey is not about escalation in the shonen sense. It's a personal journey, the very antithesis of those before him. He's not this powerful at the start and, if you read the sheet, you'll note that he loses his powers later.
the big bad doesn't exist in his story, not as one would commonly define big bad anyway.
If you're going to give your OC so much shit for the sake of giving him shit, why not go balls out and make him a shinigami hollow fullbring quincy human stand user wielder of the mystic eyes of death perception, sharingan, rinnegan, byakugan, geass, azure grimoire, ghoul powers, psychic powers, conceptual reality warping, genuine unlimited noble phantasm creation, servant summoning, eight servant cards, taijutsu, ninjutsu, kenjutsu, astra path, celestial magic, first, second and third magic, fourth magic, dragon slayer magic, time control magic, hadoken, devil jin powers, gomu gomu fruit, the heart...
See what I mean? Mary sues only keep being entertaining for so long, having a character with so many different mojos for the hell of it dullens the butter knife. Going for KISS would be a better option imo.
One true OTP...
Well as I've said a few times now, I'd need to actually read your story in order to judge it properly. I think just throwing the sheet at people right off the bat is the worst thing you can do, and makes Satoshi look like just some generic overpowered wish-fulfillment character even if you have in mind something more nuanced. I'm also still very iffy on the milkshake thing, I see what you mean about needing something totally outrageously horrible to provoke that extreme a reaction (fullblown insanity, as opposed to shonen righteous anger). Still, I'd suggest something different and less gory (this might be just a personal thing though, not a fan of gore). Like maybe Gilgamesh kidnaps her and Satoshi gets inches away from being able to save her and it looks like everything's going to resolve itself happily and then bam! Gil reappears and kills her off-handedly. That'd certainly be shocking enough without having to resort to gore.
Or maybe have him save her and have a little moment of hope and tender love before going BAM, UR WAIFU IS DED!
One true OTP...
And yes, I do think the amount of powers he has is pretty ridiculous but I'm doing my best to give Lantz the benefit of the doubt here. (Also he may not have access to all of them at once? Not too sure on this.)
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Basically. Something like Kana's death from the Parasyte manga/anime series is what I was thinking of. Edit: spoiler-tags are way too clunky to use on this forum (I mean, they basically divide up the whole paragraph) so I ended up going for black coloring as obfuscation instead.
Last edited by RoydGolden; December 17th, 2015 at 09:14 PM.
He’s now in the suburbs’ wreckage,
There is the Gulf, the house is near…
But what is this? He stopped, frustrated,
Went back, returned a little later…
He looks… he walks … he looks once more.
There is the place their house for
And willow-tree. The gates were here –
They’re swept… But where’s the house, o grace?
And full of troubles, hard to wear,
He walked and walked around the place.
Told to himself in voices loud –
And suddenly, as if all’s found,
Struck his forehead and fell in laugh.
The night embraced the city, stuffed
With all its woe. And still for hours
A sleep was running from each house –
The folk recalling the past day.
Now, through the clouds, weak and pale,
The morn ray flashed o’er the mute city
And did not found e’en a trace
Of the past woe. The dawn, witty,
Had safely screened the doing, base.
The former life had got its place.
Along the streets now free of flooding,
With cold indifference, folks are moving.
Just having left his lodge of night,
The clerk is going at his site.
The petty tradesman, very dauntless,
Is opening his cellar – wet,
Robbed by the waves’ impudent set –
Intending to revenge his losses
On brothers-humans. From the yard
Is pulled the boat, full of mud.
Count Khvostov, a pet of Zeus,
Now is singing his songs, deathless,
To the Neva shores’ former plight.
What’s of Evgeny, our poor hero? …
Alas! His agitated mind,
Against the immense woe’s billow
Didn’t stand untouchable. The wind’s
And Neva’s noise was always growing
In his poor ears. Mute and half-blind,
With awful thoughts, he was a-roaming,
Being quite tortured by some dream.
Is that from a poem or something? (I take it you didn't exactly come up with it yourself) Don't see the obvious relevance to the topic at hand, other than apparently being about a hero tortured by past losses or something (at least, that seems to be what it's about from my skimming it).
what could it mean
what could it
what could
what
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
It means Leo has gone really deep into his Russian Literature binge, if he's breaking it out for a lantz thread.
Binged All Of Gundam In 4 Years, 1 Week and All I Got Was This Stupid Mask
FF XIV: Walked to the End
Started Legend of the Galactic Heroes (14/07/23), pray for me.
@francobull3
everything he has, has meaning. I realize the skeptical outlook but again it's the Superman fallacy. Power, especially in the shonen context means very little. Even if he were to lose every power at the story's end it wouldn't change anything. The why he has or gains the power is the important bit. whether or not he deserves them is up to the reader however.
@Roydgolden
I did say it needs a mechanical rewrite, less shock, more horror. As for getting close to saving her, no. He's supposed to be completely useless, it sets the scaling standard. The first arc defines his path and subverts the usual pl bs.
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