View Poll Results: Do you like Shinji?

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  • Yes, I do like Shinji

    44 51.16%
  • No, I dislike Shinji

    23 26.74%
  • I neither like nor dislike Shinji

    19 22.09%
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Thread: Do you like Shinji? Episode II

  1. #141
    Fuckin' chicken grill!!! Kotonoha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    Ah, I see. I don't remember that, to be honest, only Shirou getting furious and having to be held back by Sakura when he sees her trying to cover up the seals and thinks she's covering new marks of abuse from Shinji.
    They're the same scene lol.

    Honestly a lot of what we know about Shinji's feelings towards Shirou is just told to us by Sakura in like the first 3 days of the game.
    "nii-san's mad at you senpai he thinks you're still fighting" "nii-san actually likes you more than anyone else senpai he just can't show it" "don't get too mad at him senpai, you're his only friend" wow thanks Wakame Whisperer

  2. #142
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Imperial's Avatar
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    I don't like him as a person or a character.

    He's more of a collection of negative traits than a real character, which turns him into this absurdly evil Saturday morning cartoon character who I can't take seriously anymore, but that's a problem with the Matou family in general. Nasu really needed to pump the breaks on how evil/tragic they were. HF felt like Nasu holding up a megaphone and screaming, "LOOK AT HOW SAD THIS IS! ISN'T IT SAD? YOU SHOULD FEEL SAD!"

    Since the original VN, Shinji has been reduced mostly to a joke character, but even that doesn't work when he spent so much time trying to top his own repulsive acts. He tries to melt everyone in school. He tries to murder his old best friend and clearly enjoys it. He's a serial rapist.

    Sure, there's something to be said for the environment he was raised in and the toxicity of magi culture, but he's old enough by the time we meet him to realize what he is doing is wrong. Torturing Sakura doesn't grant him the Magic Circuits he craves or make him any better, and that's one of the reasons I came to find Zouken so interesting. Whereas Shinji seems to feel like Sakura owes it to him to suffer his rage to make him feel better, Zouken doesn't make any bones about it. He does horrible things because they serve his goals and makes no excuses for how someone robbed him of his place in the family or how he's doing the evil thing to bring about a greater good. Zouken is evil and knows it (or at least doesn't care). Shinji is laboring under the delusion that he's owed something and is justified in acting this way. He is weak of mind.
    Spoiler:
    Originally Posted by You
    when all the evils have given up their waifus, all the greats have left for med school, and there are no more at least 3 day battles to be fought what is left is

    not Tsukihime 2
    not DDD3
    not even Girl's Work

    but f/go

    and now f/go english

    that is what is waiting for you at the end of schadenfreude


  3. #143
    Fuckin' chicken grill!!! Kotonoha's Avatar
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    I used to find Zouken interesting until I reread HF and remembered all the times he went "no Hassan, let's not be practical, let's stand around and laugh evilly instead"

  4. #144
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    i like zouken because he's cute.
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny
    In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

  5. #145
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors DTTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotonoha View Post
    I used to find Zouken interesting until I reread HF and remembered all the times he went "no Hassan, let's not be practical, let's stand around and laugh evilly instead"

    The guy's basically nuts,what do you expect

  6. #146
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Imperial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotonoha View Post
    I used to find Zouken interesting until I reread HF and remembered all the times he went "no Hassan, let's not be practical, let's stand around and laugh evilly instead"
    Oh, yeah. I can definitely see where Shinji gets it from. It's a wonder Zouken doesn't grow out a long, thing mustache so he can stroke it malevolently as Shinji ties Sakura to the train tracks.
    Spoiler:
    Originally Posted by You
    when all the evils have given up their waifus, all the greats have left for med school, and there are no more at least 3 day battles to be fought what is left is

    not Tsukihime 2
    not DDD3
    not even Girl's Work

    but f/go

    and now f/go english

    that is what is waiting for you at the end of schadenfreude


  7. #147
    マリーの味方 Sesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
    Zouken doesn't make any bones about it. He does horrible things because they serve his goals and makes no excuses for how someone robbed him of his place in the family or how he's doing the evil thing to bring about a greater good. Zouken is evil and knows it (or at least doesn't care).
    did you miss the part where it is revealed he is actually just senile

  8. #148
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Imperial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesto View Post
    did you miss the part where it is revealed he is actually just senile
    Yeah, he wanted to save humanity just like our boy Shirou. He's another dark future like EMIYA.

    But that was forgotten so long ago that it's not even his motivation by the time we meet him. He's gone full evil mastermind.

    Judging his actions in Zero and Stay Night by the values that no longer have any meaning to him is pointless.
    Spoiler:
    Originally Posted by You
    when all the evils have given up their waifus, all the greats have left for med school, and there are no more at least 3 day battles to be fought what is left is

    not Tsukihime 2
    not DDD3
    not even Girl's Work

    but f/go

    and now f/go english

    that is what is waiting for you at the end of schadenfreude


  9. #149
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotonoha View Post
    They're the same scene lol.
    I believe you. I just didn't remember it :-P
    What's a wakame?

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    I believe you. I just didn't remember it :-P
    What's a wakame?
    Seaweed.

    It's his hair.

  11. #151
    Greatness, at any cost mAc Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
    Sure, there's something to be said for the environment he was raised in and the toxicity of magi culture, but he's old enough by the time we meet him to realize what he is doing is wrong. Torturing Sakura doesn't grant him the Magic Circuits he craves or make him any better, and that's one of the reasons I came to find Zouken so interesting. Whereas Shinji seems to feel like Sakura owes it to him to suffer his rage to make him feel better, Zouken doesn't make any bones about it. He does horrible things because they serve his goals and makes no excuses for how someone robbed him of his place in the family or how he's doing the evil thing to bring about a greater good. Zouken is evil and knows it (or at least doesn't care). Shinji is laboring under the delusion that he's owed something and is justified in acting this way. He is weak of mind.
    That just makes Shinji more realistic. Most people still do things they know are wrong and rationalize it.
    He never sleeps. He never dies.

    Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
    Sure, there's something to be said for the environment he was raised in and the toxicity of magi culture, but he's old enough by the time we meet him to realize what he is doing is wrong. Torturing Sakura doesn't grant him the Magic Circuits he craves or make him any better, and that's one of the reasons I came to find Zouken so interesting. Whereas Shinji seems to feel like Sakura owes it to him to suffer his rage to make him feel better, Zouken doesn't make any bones about it. He does horrible things because they serve his goals and makes no excuses for how someone robbed him of his place in the family or how he's doing the evil thing to bring about a greater good. Zouken is evil and knows it (or at least doesn't care). Shinji is laboring under the delusion that he's owed something and is justified in acting this way. He is weak of mind.
    Teenager vs man who's been alive for several hundred years.

  13. #153
    Fuckin' chicken grill!!! Kotonoha's Avatar
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    Zouken [...] makes no excuses
    "The Matou lineage was fine, it was just Japan that was bad"

  14. #154
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Imperial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
    That just makes Shinji more realistic. Most people still do things they know are wrong and rationalize it.
    Sure, people do it all the time. I've done it. That doesn't mean I have to give it a pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow View Post
    Teenager vs man who's been alive for several hundred years.
    Still old enough to make decisions for himself

    Quote Originally Posted by Kotonoha View Post
    "The Matou lineage was fine, it was just Japan that was bad"
    Point
    Spoiler:
    Originally Posted by You
    when all the evils have given up their waifus, all the greats have left for med school, and there are no more at least 3 day battles to be fought what is left is

    not Tsukihime 2
    not DDD3
    not even Girl's Work

    but f/go

    and now f/go english

    that is what is waiting for you at the end of schadenfreude


  15. #155
    Greatness, at any cost mAc Chaos's Avatar
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    I don't get how that means it's badly written though. It's relatable. Most people would be like Shinji in his situation.
    He never sleeps. He never dies.

    Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

  16. #156
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Imperial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
    I don't get how that means it's badly written though. It's relatable. Most people would be like Shinji in his situation.
    I didn't say that part of his person was badly written. The small fish in a big pond is an interesting story to tell. I simply don't think Nasu told it well, just as I don't think he told the Shirou and Saber love story very well.

    I don't find him relatable because I'm not a spiteful rapist. Not to imply that you or anyone who enjoys him is that sort of thing, but it's hard for me to get behind someone like that. It's part of the reason I don't like Shiki. As soon as Shiki raped Arc -- and Nasu had the nerve to throw in some stupid explanation about how it was her fault she was violated -- I rapidly cooled on Tsukihime and only finished the Arc and Ciel routes. I didn't like the protagonist enough to continue reading anything from his perspective.

    I violently reject your notion that most people would be like Shinji in that situation. Kariya walked away from it all, and while he, too, did something awful to a woman in his life after assigning blame, it's still a sign that seeing the evils for what they are and walking away from the family is an acceptable solution for the Matou boys.
    Last edited by Imperial; April 6th, 2016 at 04:08 PM.
    Spoiler:
    Originally Posted by You
    when all the evils have given up their waifus, all the greats have left for med school, and there are no more at least 3 day battles to be fought what is left is

    not Tsukihime 2
    not DDD3
    not even Girl's Work

    but f/go

    and now f/go english

    that is what is waiting for you at the end of schadenfreude


  17. #157
    Fuckin' chicken grill!!! Kotonoha's Avatar
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    Takeuchi: In episode 8 Shinji did a 180 and started seeming cute. As expected, he's still as much of a hopeless character as ever after 10 years.
    Nasu: That's a normal high-schooler's mentality. If your long lifetime of ressentiment suddenly turned around and you got power and a hot girl, what would you do?
    Takeuchi: Ah... yeah, you really would get kind of "hyahha"...

    every teen confirmed for Shinji

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
    Still old enough to make decisions for himself
    That was in reference to the difference in how Shinji and Zouken rationalize what they do.

  19. #159
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Imperial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotonoha View Post
    Takeuchi: In episode 8 Shinji did a 180 and started seeming cute. As expected, he's still as much of a hopeless character as ever after 10 years.
    Nasu: That's a normal high-schooler's mentality. If your long lifetime of ressentiment suddenly turned around and you got power and a hot girl, what would you do?
    Takeuchi: Ah... yeah, you really would get kind of "hyahha"...

    every teen confirmed for Shinji
    By this logic, every troubled teenager who went to school in the American Southeast should be a school shooter.

    Kids can be cruel. Teenagers do stupid stuff all the time.

    But going full Ted Bundy because you had a rough childhood is a pile of bullshit stacked so high I can't even begin to look past it.
    Last edited by Imperial; April 6th, 2016 at 04:26 PM.
    Spoiler:
    Originally Posted by You
    when all the evils have given up their waifus, all the greats have left for med school, and there are no more at least 3 day battles to be fought what is left is

    not Tsukihime 2
    not DDD3
    not even Girl's Work

    but f/go

    and now f/go english

    that is what is waiting for you at the end of schadenfreude


  20. #160
    Fuckin' chicken grill!!! Kotonoha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
    I violently reject your notion that most people would be like Shinji in that situation. Kariya walked away from it all, and while he, too, did something awful to a woman in his life after assigning blame, it's still a sign that seeing the evils for what they are and walking away from the family is an acceptable solution for the Matou boys.
    Altima brought this up too but I think the difference is that Shinji's whole problem was his inferiority complex, which partly stemmed from Zouken treating him like he was worthless (and the contradiction with his feelings of superiority to the average person). Kariya didn't have that, as far as we know, so he was able to go "this sucks I'm out".

    Leaving would require not caring if Zouken disowned him. But if he didn't care about Zouken disowning him then he wouldn't have a problem in the first place so he wouldn't have to leave. so lol

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