Things that annoy you in TM

[Deathhappens]

ah yes, 'reapers'

Underrated

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but it is tho?
it is very much more substantial than one or two lines from the profile or mats
the sigurd and brynhildr dialogue under the moon, for example, gives much more substance than the 1 off lines we get from materials, for example

The volume might be larger, but the content isn't much deeper. It's still surface-level "Oh Look They Really Love Each Other" stuff.

[Dullahan]

This is so obvious I shouldn't even have to, but sure: FGO can't tell stories beyond a certain length without fights happening due to form-specific expectations of player attention span (a book could do this.). FGO can't tell stories with (overt) porn in them due to content restrictions imposed by the mobile platform (a VN could do this). FGO can't tell event- or singularity-specific stories in which player choice causes the narrative to diverge into branches which differ to the extent seen in the different routes in FSN and Tsuki because all events have to ultimately fold back into the overarching plot without significant interruption. (a VN could do this.) FGO can't tell a story in which a servant is permakilled by some means and is removed from the summoning pool and the player's collection. (almost any other medium could do this) and so on and so on. There are so many constraints imposed on FGO which are there precisely because it is a slot machine and has to fulfil the requirements of a slot machine that denying it is sheer delusion

[Deathhappens]

(Though admittedly I didn't personally read that particular interaction you mentioned except in summary, you get my point).

[castor212]

(Though admittedly I didn't personally read that particular interaction you mentioned except in summary, you get my point).

i kinda dont
because what you said isnt really true
maybe its the summary fault of being summary, but the many spread out scenes of interaction between those two is not just surface level love love each other

[Deathhappens]

This is so obvious I shouldn't even have to, but sure: FGO can't tell stories beyond a certain length without fights happening due to form-specific expectations of player attention span (a book could do this.). FGO can't tell stories with (overt) porn in them due to content restrictions imposed by the mobile platform (a VN could do this). FGO can't tell event- or singularity-specific stories in which player choice causes the narrative to diverge into branches which differ to the extent seen in the different routes in FSN and Tsuki because all events have to ultimately fold back into the overarching plot without significant interruption. (a VN could do this.) FGO can't tell a story in which a servant is permakilled by some means and is removed from the summoning pool and the player's collection. (almost any other medium could do this) and so on and so on. There are so many constraints imposed on FGO which are there precisely because it is a slot machine and has to fulfil the requirements of a slot machine that denying it is sheer delusion

Ok, I'm going to have to disagree with that. Sure, the plot is entirely linear unlike what a VN's or an RPG's could be, and you may even have a point about attention spans, but Servants being "pernakilled" as part of a story can and has happened,and to great (in my opinion) effect. They're still available in the game, sure, but that's just segregation of gameplay and story.

I honestly don't see how lack of porn can actually harm a story, but let's pretend you just said "adult themes". That's also something MOST media suffer from out there, eroge and other "adult-only entertainment" (with all the sales restrictions that brings) being the exception.

[castor212]

actually maybe it is​ the summary

[Deathhappens]

i kinda dont
because what you said isnt really true
maybe its the summary fault of being summary, but the many spread out scenes of interaction between those two is not just surface level love love each other

I'll take your word on it for that particular instance, but it's still the case with most similar interactions in the game.

[castor212]

This is so obvious I shouldn't even have to, but sure: FGO can't tell stories beyond a certain length without fights happening due to form-specific expectations of player attention span (a book could do this.). FGO can't tell stories with (overt) porn in them due to content restrictions imposed by the mobile platform (a VN could do this). FGO can't tell event- or singularity-specific stories in which player choice causes the narrative to diverge into branches which differ to the extent seen in the different routes in FSN and Tsuki because all events have to ultimately fold back into the overarching plot without significant interruption. (a VN could do this.) FGO can't tell a story in which a servant is permakilled by some means and is removed from the summoning pool and the player's collection. (almost any other medium could do this) and so on and so on. There are so many constraints imposed on FGO which are there precisely because it is a slot machine and has to fulfil the requirements of a slot machine that denying it is sheer delusion

i dont get it
how is this the gacha effect

i see fights happening inbetween stories in PC games, it doesnt feel like this is a gachabased games only problem
whereas GO actually has those 0 AP which is pure story and no battles, and its always an actually long and meaty one

how is porn a crucial part of a story that isnt a smut/nukige
heck a normal book couldnt do that, as long as content general restriction is a thing

a normal book also cannot tell stories with choices diverging the outcome, and books dont have gacha

servant being permakilled happens all the time

and lastly, um, how are all thesed induce by gacha, specifically? i cant connect this

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I'll take your word on it for that particular instance, but it's still the case with most similar interactions in the game.

that's not to say al of them is
but thats not to say all if them isnt too

[Rafflesiac]

Ok, I'm going to have to disagree with that. Sure, the plot is entirely linear unlike what a VN's or an RPG's could be, and you may even have a point about attention spans, but Servants being "pernakilled" as part of a story can and has happened,and to great (in my opinion) effect. They're still available in the game, sure, but that's just segregation of gameplay and story.

I honestly don't see how lack of porn can actually harm a story, but let's pretend you just said "adult themes". That's also something MOST media suffer from out there, eroge and other "adult-only entertainment" (with all the sales restrictions that brings) being the exception.

Why should I care that Okita Alter cries and goes poof at the end of GudaGuda3 when I rolled her on day 1 with a ticket?

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On a more cynical note, why care that Matt bites it in Salomon when I know that if she's gone for real that DW gets sued? Like how Inifinity War gets gutted by the announced contracts for its actors.

[castor212]

rolled her on day 1 with a ticket?

ok but what np lvl is your izo

[Lily Emilio]

FGO can't tell stories beyond a certain length without fights happening due to form-specific expectations of player attention span (a book could do this.).

I thought you've read the scripts. Did you not see how insanely long each parts of Salem chapter (and then later on LB1,2) was in-between fights. While it's partly true for some early chapters, It's not uncommon for you to have to read (if one choose to) for a good 30 mins before an actual fight happened. Heck, there are multiple story sections without fight and just ppl talking, discussing, explaining stuffs. This is what you've missed because you did not play the game.

FGO can't tell stories with (overt) porn in them due to content restrictions imposed by the mobile platform (a VN could do this).

TM already moved on from porn for awhile, this is not a GO problem. I played DMM gacha games and they have all-ages and R18 versions for some. Porn is not a problem for gacha/mobile platform.

FGO can't tell event- or singularity-specific stories in which player choice causes the narrative to diverge into branches which differ to the extent seen in the different routes in FSN and Tsuki because all events have to ultimately fold back into the overarching plot without significant interruption. (a VN could do this.)

I don't see gacha being the factor here. Games like Persona, Ryu ga Gotoku series (full console games) have superfluous choices just like that like 90% of the game as well. This is not a gacha game problem.

FGO can't tell a story in which a servant is permakilled by some means and is removed from the summoning pool and the player's collection. (almost any other medium could do this) and so on and so on.

Solomon, literally removed from the throne of heroes. Until he somehow return through some bullshit just so he can be in the gacha, you don't have anything here.

There are so many constraints imposed on FGO which are there precisely because it is a slot machine and has to fulfil the requirements of a slot machine that denying it is sheer delusion

There are so many wrong assumptions you've made here that denying it is sheer delusion.

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On a more cynical note, why care that Matt bites it in Salomon when I know that if she's gone for real that DW gets sued? Like how Inifinity War gets gutted by the announced contracts for its actors.

Not a gacha game problem either. I knew Kazuma Kiryu won't die for real in Yakuza 6 for example, and the after credits confirmed it. It's the problem in all big franchises, not exclusive to GO.

[Deathhappens]

Why should I care that Okita Alter cries and goes poof at the end of GudaGuda3 when I rolled her on day 1 with a ticket?

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On a more cynical note, why care that Matt bites it in Salomon when I know that if she's gone for real that DW gets sued? Like how Inifinity War gets gutted by the announced contracts for its actors.

Did anyone actually walk out of Infinity War thinking "Well shit, no more Marvel movies now I guess" ? I doubt it. Fair point, though. I was thinking of stuff like Arash in Camelot, where you may have him in your team for literally years now but he still gets a great sacrifice scene.

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Also I want to point out how Heihachi "died" again in Tekken 7.

[Dullahan]

I thought you've read the scripts. Did you not see how insanely long each parts of Salem chapter (and then later on LB1,2) was in-between fights. While it's partly true for some early chapters, It's not uncommon for you to have to read (if one choose to) for a good 30 mins before an actual fight happened. Heck, there are multiple story sections without fight and just ppl talking, discussing, explaining stuffs. This is what you've missed because you did not play the game.

That is still an accomodation to reasonable expectation. 30 minutes is not much downtime in the grand scheme of things; the length of an average anime episode if that. The average feature film these days is accepted in its demand for three or four times as much of our attention span. VNs? Up to 60 or 100 hours, of course mediated by the ability to save and resume at any point. The formal constraint may not seem very big to you but it is still a formal constraint.

TM already moved on from porn for awhile, this is not a GO problem. I played DMM gacha games and they have all-ages and R18 versions for some. Porn is not a problem for gacha/mobile platform.

We could have a productive conversation about what kinds of pornographic content R18 mobage privilege their delivery thereof, but this isn't the venue. Those mobage which do have distinct all-ages and R18 versions are designed that way from the ground up. FGO is not, and the possibility of any of its content delivery moving in that direction in future is foreclosed by the form. You say TM have moved on from porn, and sure, that's true. The role FGO itself, and its success, has played in that movement could be debated. But the future is unpredictable. Maybe at some point they move back in that direction. IF they do, FGO cannot be the medium for it.

I don't see gacha being the factor here. Games like Persona, Ryu ga Gotoku series (full console games) have superfluous choices just like that like 90% of the game as well. This is not a gacha game problem.

That it's a game problem in general as well does not exclude it from being a gacha game problem, nor, indeed, from being a problem period which is the point.

Solomon, literally removed from the throne of heroes. Until he somehow return through some bullshit just so he can be in the gacha, you don't have anything here.

Solomon was never summonable, so this is irrelevant. The game can't tell a story in which servants you have in your collection get taken away, because DW would get sued.

And honestly,

>Until he somehow return through some bullshit just so he can be in the gacha

the fact that you can voice this expectation and simultaneously deny that the form has any determining role to play over the content is hysterical

"Bullshit" is precisely what has been at stake this whole time

the fact that the gacha being there creates incentive for "Bullshit" to happen in the manner you describe

THIS IS THE PROBLEM

[Mcjon01]

Superfluous choices leading to identical outcomes is a life problem tbqh

[castor212]

The formal constraint may not seem very big to you but it is still a formal constraint.

but normal games, pc games, ps4 games, games in general has this constraint in varying degree
how is this the gacha fault

Maybe at some point they move back in that direction. IF they do, FGO cannot be the medium for it.

ok but TM normal novels also cant
how is this the gacha fault

That it's a game problem in general as well does not exclude it from being a gacha game problem, nor, indeed, from being a problem period which is the point.

normal books also has this problem of "your own choice doesnt matter"
how is this the gacha fault

im really confused here
why blame all this to the gacha part when its a problem on many mediums beyond gacha games, and even many mediums beyond games

[Dullahan]

confusion is frequent here

[castor212]

oh, youre back on being an ad hominem douche instead of answering respectfully

ok then

i dont know, confusion is also a result of incompetence in answering simple questions

you know, the ones above that you conveniently ignoring and doesnt answer, so i cant even begin to comprehend it when your answer doesnt exist

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until you actually answer in an actual rational manner, all your 'problems' are not 'problems' so much as flimsy 'justifications'.

i mean youre not making any sense
if gacha is bad in inducing stories that is interrupted with gameplay, that means all gameplay based videogames are bad
if gacha is bad in inducing no porn, then all media brought from the conception to not include porn are bad
if gacha is bad in inducing restricted to no choice picking, then that means literally all books are bad

youre just hating on everything at this point for your own justification

[Lily Emilio]

That is still an accomodation to reasonable expectation. 30 minutes is not much downtime in the grand scheme of things; the length of an average anime episode if that. The average feature film these days is accepted in its demand for three or four times as much of our attention span. VNs? Up to 60 or 100 hours, of course mediated by the ability to save and resume at any point. The formal constraint may not seem very big to you but it is still a formal constraint.

30 minutes of reading with a tiny break then another 30 mins of reading, just like how ppl normally play games or read VN. No one sit down and play an entire game for 60 hours. They ARE save points. Heck just the new update they allowed you to resume the story part you're reading if the app is suddenly closed so you won't have to reread the entire shit.

We could have a productive conversation about what kinds of pornographic content R18 mobage privilege their delivery thereof, but this isn't the venue. Those mobage which do have distinct all-ages and R18 versions are designed that way from the ground up. FGO is not, and the possibility of any of its content delivery moving in that direction in future is foreclosed by the form. You say TM have moved on from porn, and sure, that's true. The role FGO itself, and its success, has played in that movement could be debated. But the future is unpredictable. Maybe at some point they move back in that direction. IF they do, FGO cannot be the medium for it.

It doesn't matter, if a medium is not designed to write porn, then it won't be compatible with porn. This can be said about anything in existence.

That it's a game problem in general as well does not exclude it from being a gacha game problem, nor, indeed, from being a problem period which is the point.

If it applies to other things in general and not exclusive to gacha, then gacha is not the root of the problem.

Solomon was never summonable, so this is irrelevant. The game can't tell a story in which servants you have in your collection get taken away, because DW would get sued.

Servants you have in your inventory are units you may or may not paid money to buy. So deleting those units is criminal act. In the first place they do not participate in the main story my dude. Heck in combat their "shadows" are summoned instead of the original body. Servants who participated in the main story are their own things. You roll the gacha for a copy base on them to fit w/e head canon you have of "muh Chaldea home sweet home harem", they don't matter or involved with the story in any ways, shape or form.

the fact that you can voice this expectation and simultaneously deny that the form has any determining role to play over the content is hysterical

"Bullshit" is precisely what has been at stake this whole time

the fact that the gacha being there creates incentive for "Bullshit" to happen in the manner you describe

THIS IS THE PROBLEM

That is the problem, yes, but it has never been a super duper doomsday problem like you made it out to be, like it's the ultimate factor, this is where I disagreed with you in the first place. Up until now there's only 1 case of gacha actually influenced the writing: King Hassan. You made it sounds like it's a recurring thing and is all over the place and that's where I had problem with your statements. Nothing you said is absolute, so you keep hammering it like that only give the impression that it's just pure hate piled upon hate for the sake of venting hate.

[Dullahan]

your questions don't bear any relation to the quotations they're below, how am I supposed to answer someone who believes 'normal books' have an element of choice in them (because there need to be choices at all for your choices to matter or not)

a formal constraint which I identify as existing in FGO - in a list which was not exhaustive but merely a sample of constraints which empirically operate on the game's content - is STILL A CONSTRAINT even if it is present in a similar aspect in other media and it IS STILL ABLE TO HAVE DELETERIOUS EFFECTS

if you want to return to the original topic of the discussion, re: the commoditisation and modularisation of narrative construction, then go ahead, there's plenty more for you to not get

[castor212]

??? that was never my aim in this discussion. not currently, anyway

my aim is for your reason for this:

The slot machine is the ultimate deciding factor for what kind of story FGO is allowed to tell.

which, so far, you are incapable in answering

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how is, the slot machine aka gacha itself, is the deciding factor, when so far your 'formal constraints' is madeup of

1. gameplay
2. choice
3. porn

?

yes, they are all constraints
but they arent slot machines, they are also books, movies, RPG games