My problem with the likes of MHX and others is that there's genuinely enough lore to make stuff like an Assassin Class Artoria without it being a joke (as was the case with Lartoria).Originally Posted by Inuhanyou
An invisibility cloak and a dagger that controls shadows, Artoria shanking people without being seen...but no, we got MHX as Assassin Artoria. *Sobs*
"Here's a bangin lil' tune about takin' on The Man!"
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I mean, to be fair there is only so much you can do with the legend which is fairly straightforward, even the Nasuversion
As Skull said, you can use the Welsh sources to find more. There's quite a lot of interesting stuff that didn't quite make it into the later versions.
but it hasnt been established at all in the nasuverse version, even in GoA...they are just gonna bring out "previously unheard of stories"?
^ I'm not quite sure what you're on about with "previously unheard of stories". Nasuverse has always had a "pick and choose whatever sounds cool" mentality when it comes to Arthurian lore, as evidenced by Swimsuit Mordred having the Prydwen as her Noble Phantasm which is from the earlier Welsh cycles.
"Here's a bangin lil' tune about takin' on The Man!"
(Check out my Super Special Awesome Servant Compendium here)
Point. Then again, they did expand on Rhongomyniad, which is only mentioned by name by either Mallory or Geoffrey of Monmouth. Adding in Carnwenan or any of her other gear shouldn't be too difficult. They even had that one demon boar in FGO.
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"Pick and choose whatever sounds cool" also describes Arthurian lore as a whole.
im saying that bringing up stuff now on the basis of "well it happend we just didnt say anything about it" is a bit akward to being up, especially when its not just a small shout out or reference.
I feel like they'd have a great opportunity to go whole ham on that sort of thing in a potential fate route remake though. If they plan on having more flashbacks to these times, it would be a good way of fleshing things out and adding more of that kind of content more seamlessly
The scene I was thinking was in Hollow Ataraxia, and involved Ayako visiting the Emiya residence to talk to Sakura about the archery-running training camp. And Sakura in that scene was like Shirou in letting Rider hit on Ayako creepily until she suddenly "popped up" and caused Rider to stop. It was to the point where Ayako was accusing Sakura of letting Rider act that way to her, with Sakura denying in it in that sort of apologetic laughing tone you see in anime a lot.
I think it was implied Sakura let the encounter build up like that before appearing.
Granted, this was all in Avenger's coma-time loop thing for Bazett so who knows how Avenger was unconsciously influencing how the characters acted vs what they qould actually do.
Also I've been thinking on the HF route, reading through it again, and ultimately I think I'm annoyed with both Rin & Sakura in it.
Rin is stupidly, and needlessly, antagonistic to Sakura in it for almost all the parts before Dark Sakura appears. Sakura idiotically decides she'll try to convince Zouken to kill her (Sakura) so Shirou will be safe, which of course plays into Zouken's hands, and of course there is that creepy bit where she gets sorta happy about keeping Shirou out of a fight by hurting him (though she gets horrified about the thought), and of course Dark Sakura, as hopped up on AM as she is, is pointed out to by Kotomine that she is killing because she's throwing a tantrum and enjoying it.
Sakura was certainly someone I sympathized with before she decided to go back to the Matou home to try to somehow confront Zouken on her own.
Shirou & Illya I liked a lot more than Rin & Sakura in HF honestly.
EDIT: I forgot the part where Rin mentions she somehow deluded herself into thinking that Sakura had an okay life despite several times telling Shirou how Sakura always was gloomy when not around him and how surprising it was to see her smile when with Shirou.
I just think HF wasn't good with both characters.
EDIT 2: Now I'm looking back at this bit:
https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2001/
And I'm wondering how the heck did Rin miss any of Shinji's bullying of Sakura at school?This smiling guy is Matou Shinji, of class 2-C.
He's the vice-captain of the archery club and owner of the hearts of half the girls in this school.
Kind of an idol, good looking, good grades, sociable, and kind to girls.
I'm not too well-informed in such areas, so I've only heard all this from my classmates.
I mean here, all she really knows about Shinji is what her classmates have mentioned, yet in HF she mentions she tried to watch over Sakura at school (kind of half-assedly I feel) so somehow Rin never caught on to anything about Shinji bullying Sakura at school?
Hell Mitsuzuri mentions several times to Shirou about Shinji bullying Sakura.
Last edited by warellis; February 3rd, 2019 at 04:17 AM.
I feel like people overstate Rin being mean to Sakura in HF actually. Whenever she is though, I thought it was apparent that she took on the tone because she wanted to convince herself that what she was doing was the proper course of action more than anyone else. Rin was also guilty of ignoring the growing signs that the killings were linked to Sakura along with Shirou until the evidence became irrefutably damning.
Yeah it's true that Sakura running back to Zouken was dumb, but like you said, the fact that she found the conviction to finally oppose him was something that he had anticipated all along to final break her by leaving Shinji who had been been repeatedly reminded of his failures the entire route and was now even being denied by Sakura there to be killed. Zouken had perfectly monitored and predicted both Shinji and Sakura's actions and mentality to that confrontation since they were both ultimately puppets of the Matou family.
I don't see anything wrong with her tantrum at all honestly, she was powerless before and now it feels like she's on top of the world and nobody can oppose her anymore, time to get revenge on the rest of the world that moved on and didn't carry about her at all. The sisterly I-still-loved-you-all-this-time-screw-this-magus-crap cooldown hug was what exactly what she needed.
Like, Rin is really stuck at the crossroads when it comes to Sakura. Any involvement she wants wants with her she can't. The extend of their relationship is how much they can interact on the surface as passing classmates during school. So wishing the best for her and hoping it's not all bad really is just Rin comforting herself of her inability to do anything.
Some suffering was expected but the scope of it Rin only realized when there was reason then to investigate the Matou basement rapeworms during the HGW.
The circumstances and reason for the character's actions make enough sense to me that I can't dislike them for it.
BL Character Defining Lines
I guess some of my issues with Rin is I'm wondering if she could have shown Sakura that she still cared for her in ways that didn't boil down to "look at her from afar at the archery range doorway" at school.
I won't get on her for stuff outside of school because I don't think she really could have found a way to get around the magus side of things there.
As for Sakura, honestly well I've complained before how HF doesn't really work on endearing Sakura as a heroine instead of a victim before she turns into one of the main baddies.
And yeah, you're right on the killings.
Actually some of my annoyance there is that Rin's most antagonistic attitude toward Sakura was before both she & Shirou were slowly finding out she was unconsciously behind the Shadow.
I actually liked that bit... maybe I just have a sick sense of humor, and maybe it's unrealistic or maybe it isn't, but to me it was an entertaining way of showing a character starting to lose her grip.
O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed you have not already collapsed in ruin.
HF has a lot of weird controversial parts i cant say i like or agree with, but i suppose that's also part of the charm in general. the story gets turned on its head pretty completely compared to the other routes.
But two things that particularly stand out to me about the original uncensored are the need to go over the top with Sakura to take advantage of the H game situation. No, you didnt have to include the crest worms giving her extreme sexual desires so she'd fuck any guy, including Shinji, that's as transparent a plot device as the mana transfer scenes in the other routes just to give her erotic points, its not necessary and hurts Sakura's character on an empathetic level IMO.
Speaking of shinji, the guy being a complete asshole monster is one thing, but i feel like the shinji rape stuff prior to the time Sakura kills him also hurts the emotional impact of Sakura's suffering and arc in the route itself. I have always felt that Realta nua did it better where Shinji was a piece of shit before, but him snapping and trying to go that extra mile in that last desperate moment actually gives far more emotional precedence to Sakura snapping, killing him and then going off the deep end herself.
Speaking of Realta Nua, just what was Shinji's abuse of Sakura there?
As for the Crest Worms being sexual like that, I thought it sort of worked okay with Sakura's loathing because she's forced to be horny thanks to them. Like you can tell she hardly wants to be doing things like masturbating to Shirou after seeing his physique when she treats him, but thanks to the Worms, she's forced to be horny.
Like it really played into Sakura's disgust toward herself.
Last edited by warellis; February 3rd, 2019 at 07:49 AM.
Standard DV
Well, the thing I argue on that is it doesn't seem to happen as often as some think it is. We see it happen often in HF because she is using a lot of magical energy, more than she would use and be able to gain back.
Most believe she is just smacking her lips on the daily for the cock, but that doesn't seem to be the case. We see her go through those two weeks in other routes (less in UBW of course), and no symptoms show themselves, meaning severe lack of magical energy outside of what she can restore herself is needed.
It also doesn't take into account that not only is stimulating her, but there are harmful parts to it when it does happen, like where she couldn't breath and the familiars are running through her organs.
It's a parasitic type of situation, of not really feeling like your body is your body, the internal dialog muses on that.
The prologue isn’t exactly her internal monologue, unless you also believe that she’s trained herself to literally never think about how Sakura is her sister or that she knows who Shirou is already. Presumably she knows and it’s not in the text there for the reader.
@warellis:
To also answer your question on the Rider bits. It's mostly because Hollow has everything out in the open and the characters moving on.
Like, Zouken and Shinji are left alone, and so is Gil, despite all that happens being kinda common knowledge, so its given a more comedic air of things.
Saber knows Caster has creepy feelings about her, but as long as she chills it's fine, again Zouken is allowed to keep breathing and Rider/others haven not bombed the Matou estate despite Sakura being freed by whatever method led to this current development, Ayako may not remember what happened to her but feels it instinctively and Medusa likes her blood, but it's always just Medusa being thirsty instead of being allowed to do anything.
So people know all the dirty laundry, it's just that there is a cease fire. There was a good scene where Medusa does say that she and Sakura have different ideologies as Master and Servant, so that does show Sakura is keeping her in check to a degree (even if she does things like sipping Shirou's blood while he sleeps), so there is an implication of only allowing things up to a point. Though Rin herself says in FSN if she had a good familiar like Medusa she would overlook 'some mischief', so there you go.
Sure, though that is like his whole "Rejoice, boy, your wish has come true" to imply that Shirou wanted a villain to give purpose to the ideal. For Sakura, he picked at the wound of her trying to assuage the guilt she is feeling by disassociating from it and saying she was always a monster.and of course Dark Sakura, as hopped up on AM as she is, is pointed out to by Kotomine that she is killing because she's throwing a tantrum and enjoying it.
He works well with partial truths. And his implications are actually pretty disingenuous if not downright hypocritical, because the whole plan to have AM be born is because he couldn't reconcile his own feelings, so he needed an Answer from something else, ironically having his own tantrum.
That and tricking her friend and sister that there was no other way than killing her, causing already fractured bonds to fracture e bnb even more. Can't even blame her for snapping him like a twig. Hmm, but I do wonder, she knows given their connection that he killed her father, I wonder if she felt something from that.
Not to mention he DID kinda help warp Kariya further, and knew about her situation since he had Hundred Faces stalk Kariya.
Whoo, he really deserved that back breaking she gave him.
Forcing her to play Monopoly with the original rules, fighting in Brawl spike pits with fall-y blocks on top, scraping nails on a chalkboard whenever she tried to sleep, etc.
And beatings and insults.
I guess I was expecting Shirou & Sakura to cut in earlier when it became clear that Ayako was being really uncomfortable about it around Rider. I was kind of hoping they could maybe even help Rider a bit with potentially wooing Ayako a little.
But then again, considering how Avenger was sort of influencing Shirou, and technically all the stuff in Ataraxia (with the exception of the epilogue, that Himuro Love Detective Eclipse scene, and the four sex scenes [which seem to take place in UBW True, UBW Good, & HF True (though Rider's comment about how she isn't like Saber there make me wonder if it was in its own weird route somewhere instead of HF True)]) was all in Avenger's dream-coma for Bazett, maybe his unconscious influence was letting "Shirou" and "Sakura" find it more humorous to let "Ayako" squirm like that around "Rider."
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