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Thread: Things that annoy you in TM

  1. #7601
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    "face value"-----?
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  2. #7602
    He means "accurate". Form a historical or mythical point of view.
    Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.

  3. #7603
    妄念 Kamerad's Avatar
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    if anything le saber wars is a further reinforcement of market-speak within TM works, rather than a critique of any kind.

  4. #7604
    muh vampires Ratman's Avatar
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    I mean, we have evidence that it's possible to do worse. Like when Alan Moore used to write something similar to Fate, except that he went and made Harry Potter the antichrist school shooter, murdering everybody in Hogwarts and raping McGonagall. At the point where his entire upbringing is a conspiracy, and Ron Weasly is a secret agent, we're not really talking about Harry Potter anymore. We're borrowing his aestehics for cheap shock value. And that's not fanfiction, that's a widely acclaimed commercial product! Turns out that edgy does not sell.

    Similarly, when your Attila the Hun is neither Attila, nor a Hun, but instead a female alien with a popsicle sword, you are not even borrowing aestethics, or the name, you're basically selling the promise of a idea. There's a point, as the reader walks over the bridge that is being sold to them, where they look back, and realize that the bridge is not only poorly suspended, it is in fact a drawbridge that is rising, trying to trap them inside. There has never been a bridge the sides of which we could argue about, it was a trap all along. Maybe it's nice on the other side, but fact remains we have been cheated. You seem to be saying that people don't care about that. I think they do.

    E: I also think that TM is aware of this. That's why we get Saber Wars as an admission that things are getting real dumb about now. Can frankly think of no other other explanation for things to get this dumb.
    Last edited by Ratman; November 24th, 2020 at 11:52 AM.

  5. #7605
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    debate over how 'accurate' a given heroic spirit/servant character is to their 'original' - is, let me be clear, a lot of fun, and it can't be said that there isn't a kernel of something important in making those criticisms - but I think it is a mistake to proceed with the assumption that 'accuracy' in this context is something which can be understood naively as 'true representation'. 'truth' is more complicated a matter than simply 'getting the legend right' or 'not giving medieval potentates big tits just because it'll sell well'. what exactly is happening when the 'original' persons or characters are 'represented' in Fate is not so obvious as it is generally assumed. it is a mistake to focus on whether or not the CONTENT of the Servant character-form is 'accurate' if this leads you to ignore the FORM itself, which has been driven towards ever-greater standardisation and modularisation by the course of Fate's development. the issue is not that certain Servants are 'bad' or 'false representations' of their 'original'. the issue is that the Servant 'form' or 'container' itself, regardless of whether its contents are 'accurate' or 'inaccurate', imposes constraints on what the character can be and how it can stand in relation to its 'original'.
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  6. #7606
    muh vampires Ratman's Avatar
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    I guess that makes sense. Though Altera hardly represents the idea of Attila the Hun, form or not.

    If you're going to say
    'Well nerds will eat up anything'
    'Well TM is too big to fail so they can put out anything'
    'looking for meaning in TM of 2020 is a folly just enjoy the pretty pictures'
    Then that's awfully nihilist of you. I want to understand. I want to know WHY this stuff got so needlesly complicated. Doesn't matter doesn't answer the question. This stuff is getting completely window-smashingly insane and I want to know what the exact cause of that is.

  7. #7607
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    I want to understand. I want to know WHY this stuff got so needlesly complicated.
    The secret is, it always was.
    Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.

  8. #7608
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    i am not going to say those things, fortunately, so the charge of nihilism is dextrously side-stepped
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  9. #7609
    妄念 Kamerad's Avatar
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    ids not that gomplicated Dd

  10. #7610
    屍食鬼 Ghoul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dullahan View Post
    the issue is not that certain Servants are 'bad' or 'false representations' of their 'original'. the issue is that the Servant 'form' or 'container' itself, regardless of whether its contents are 'accurate' or 'inaccurate', imposes constraints on what the character can be and how it can stand in relation to its 'original'.
    This. A thousand times this. You’ve summed up my biggest issue with Fate here.

  11. #7611
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    one might say that the 'correctness' of a servant's representation, goes only so far as its 'being correct'
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  12. #7612
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    I guess that makes sense. Though Altera hardly represents the idea of Attila the Hun, form or not.

    If you're going to say
    'Well nerds will eat up anything'
    'Well TM is too big to fail so they can put out anything'
    'looking for meaning in TM of 2020 is a folly just enjoy the pretty pictures'
    Then that's awfully nihilist of you. I want to understand. I want to know WHY this stuff got so needlesly complicated. Doesn't matter doesn't answer the question. This stuff is getting completely window-smashingly insane and I want to know what the exact cause of that is.
    Because the formal logic of the setting was (ab)used to rationalise the existence of the retarded things shoved inside it until, depending on your preferred analogy:

    1) all the bending over backwards made it a broken mess
    2) it became looser than a neckbeard's first onahole
    3) its logic became retard logic
    4) everything is perfectly explainable and therefore good.

  13. #7613
    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    Because the formal logic of the setting was (ab)used to rationalise the existence of the retarded things shoved inside ii
    I don't think it's true. The writers almost always prefer some very convoluted rationalization over a lot of other simpler options. I think the formal logic of the setting was abused because its the writers personal preference.
    Last edited by Herod; November 24th, 2020 at 01:38 PM.
    Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.

  14. #7614
    The formal logic /is/ the rationalisation ie. the 'rules' that frame the narrative. It doesn't have to do with complication, but with using this complication to naturalise elements that are foreign to the setting/narrative. In other words, parsing them in the 'Nasu' parlance and 'justifying' their existence in the setting by using its terminology. This is the onaholification of formal logic that has produced the menagerie of nonsense that makes up about half the Servant roster.

  15. #7615
    I was having a thought a while back on how you could salvage a lot of the modern stuff or the general setting as you would have to retcon/change even old stuff as well

    Like for van gogh i would remove the whole noble suicide thing, play up the fictional part so the foreginer connection isnt natural AND give use OG van gogh first, for example.

  16. #7616
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    What was the point of her being called Van Gogh, anyway?

  17. #7617
    Uhh artist memes? iunno honestly

  18. #7618
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six asterism42's Avatar
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    She's 5% van Gogh
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly

  19. #7619
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    And 4% of that is the name staples onto her

  20. #7620
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blastedspider View Post
    What was the point of her being called Van Gogh, anyway?
    More people have heard of Van Gogh than Clytie, I presume.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

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