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Thread: Things that annoy you in TM

  1. #7641
    リビングデッド Living Dead
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herod View Post
    I just don't get it, even if it is the "actual Herc" by definition the "actual Herc" by Type-Moon can't be the Herc from the Greeks myth, so what's the point? You will not be satisfied unless the character is carrying a label "this is the real original Herc"? You can't judge a character as good unless is at least for a 75% the copypaste of a 3000 year legend?
    You get hints of his sane self in stay night. He has traits he could use if not for Mad Enhancement, not the least of which being Nine Lives, he has the capacity to care for Illya, and he would have enjoyed his battle against Archer if he was not mad. So, an "actual Herc" would be one that fits those hints, at least.

  2. #7642
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    This exactly.

    If we had to have edgeturd Alceides instead of actual Herc, for example, I'd rather he just never show up at all. TM's never been shy about twisting the legend, but they always do give us a hint as to what the original might have been like when they do, and stuff like Not Really Van Gogh But With Van Gogh's Name is honestly a letdown. Let her pretend to be Van Gogh, but then EoR reveal her name as whoever she is, don't just go "lol, enjoy, the closest you'll ever see to van gogh/herc is this thing that is not van gogh/herc in any way".
    I don't mind that kind of thing as long as there's a story reason for it. Like Hokusai/Oui or Orion/Artemis. If you want to have Van Gogh but not really, maybe use a famous art forger, rather than random minor divinity.

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  3. #7643
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post
    Normally one doesn't achieve world fame lasting centuries by being 'plain', 'boring' and ordinary, so this is a false dychotomy.

    There are plenty of ways to portray historic and legendary figures as quirky larger than life figures while still being true to their spirits, rather than combining them into entities that are nor fish nor fowl, or turning them into weird contrived variants.

    Most famous people already were oddballs in one fashion or another.
    Maybe 'plain' isn't the best word for it, but maybe I mean something more along the lines of 'obvious' or played out. Like I guess the best example would be their depiction for doing the Count of Monte Cristo the way they did him. They saw that the Gankutsuou version as too iconic and so any sort of attempt at replicating that would be a failure to live up to it, and so they went with a younger Count. I imagine that similar reasons are why certain servants gets a bit pepped up with other things.

    There's also a sort of a necessary evil in that if the character writer has some idea they want to implement (other being piggybacked onto this servant, was a remnant of some super giant, alternate universe shenanigans, etc) then some servant has to "take one for the team" so to speak and have their depiction a bit muddled. Admittedly it might be better if they did it with someone less known, but it wouldn't have that shock factor going for it.

  4. #7644
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony246 View Post
    There's also a sort of a necessary evil in that if the character writer has some idea they want to implement (other being piggybacked onto this servant, was a remnant of some super giant, alternate universe shenanigans, etc) then some servant has to "take one for the team" so to speak and have their depiction a bit muddled. Admittedly it might be better if they did it with someone less known, but it wouldn't have that shock factor going for it.
    One hundred percent this. A lot of the time with Servants who subvert their legends these days, it feels less like the writer had the idea to subvert a specific legend in a specific way, and more like they had an idea for a subversion first, and then just tacked it onto whichever Servant they were assigned to write.

  5. #7645
    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Let her pretend to be Van Gogh, but then EoR reveal her name as whoever she is
    This is something I would've really loved if they did, but also knew they weren't gonna do from the very start. While I'm not in the camp who hates the character or how we were "robbed of real van gogh" or anything, when she straight up in-story says "I'll keep Van Gogh as my name because I am partly him still" that really solidified my disappointment in that they don't do cool stuff with true names and all anymore (in general I'd like that to be brought back cuz it honestly was pretty cool, but then again they're still sticking to "EoR is optional" even though it has some of the most direct relation to the main story).
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  6. #7646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herod View Post
    I just don't get it, even if it is the "actual Herc" by definition the "actual Herc" by Type-Moon can't be the Herc from the Greeks myth, so what's the point?
    That seems like a false dichotomy. Have you ever read Valerio Massimo Manfredi's "My name is Nobody"? As the title implies, it's about Odysseus. It's not *the* Odysseus from the Iliad or the Odyssey, it's Manfredi's Odysseus, but it's a new take on the character specifically and all the surrounding stories (including other characters) which is still respectful of Homer's works - he didn't just create an original character and slapped the name of "Odysseus" on him. Unlike, say, "Clytie Van Gogh".
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    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
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  7. #7647
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    Should've known better than let some Outer God tinkering around with mankind's historical figures. Just because they couldn't get the real deal, they shouldn't be all pragmatic and just patch up some mess to work around it. At least be faithful to the original. Even Clytie herself feels more like a Frankenstein's Monster. No offense to Fran, though.
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  8. #7648
    Let me rephrase then: what is the added value to the story of having the "real" Van Gogh?
    Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.

  9. #7649
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    right. adding a sprinkle of sugar to a cesspool of a story doesn't really do much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    lest we forget, efgeo's literal and figurative value comes not from "story" as some might argue, but from all the standalone saavants people would sell their cars for

  10. #7650
    All these people complaing about "fake" Van Gogh seems more obsessed to complete their personal collection of historical figures than to read the story.
    Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.

  11. #7651
    妄念 Kamerad's Avatar
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    lol

  12. #7652
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herod View Post
    All these people complaing about "fake" Van Gogh seems more obsessed to complete their personal collection of historical figures than to read the story.
    Not that hard to also point out that the translators never seem as loud as the complainers. It might be that reading the stories mellows you out more that reading about the stories ideas

  13. #7653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herod View Post
    Let me rephrase then: what is the added value to the story of having the "real" Van Gogh?
    Oh, none at all!
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  14. #7654
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    I think its less that people are disapointed by clythie not being the real Van Gogh than by the latter likely having lost his chance to appear in Fate.

  15. #7655
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    The impression I got was that van Gogh was chosen as the red herring precisely because he didn't have a chance to appear in the first place.

  16. #7656
    We Want to Protect that Head OverMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herod View Post
    Let me rephrase then: what is the added value to the story of having the "real" Van Gogh?
    The value of having one less shitty contrived hackwork of a badly stitched together character, of course.
    Last edited by OverMaster; November 26th, 2020 at 08:59 PM.

  17. #7657
    Quote Originally Posted by madarra View Post
    Not that hard to also point out that the translators never seem as loud as the complainers. It might be that reading the stories mellows you out more that reading about the stories ideas
    I wouldn't say it's that we're mellowed out, per se, but a big part is definitely that the big complainers who don't read JP first "consume" the story via botched and disjointed summaries that are already filtered through a negative viewpoint on 4chan or some shit, and so by the time the actual translations come out these people have already made up their mind and it won't actually matter what justification the story has.

    This as opposed to just reading it first-hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herod View Post
    All these people complaing about "fake" Van Gogh seems more obsessed to complete their personal collection of historical figures than to read the story.
    Yeah, like others have said, there really is no real value to be gained story-wise from having the real Van Gogh instead. If anything it's just a matter of my story vs your story, like when people get mad that a servant isn't like their own servant sheet. I can't imagine the people who ACTUALLY read the event are still mad about it being a "contrived mess because these hack writers don't ever make anything good but im still gonna stick around this fandom day in and day out and complain", and rather that it "took away" the chance for real Van Gogh to be a servant, which like Comun said, he most likely was never gonna be anyway so it literally makes no difference.
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  18. #7658
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post
    The value of having one less shitty contrived hackwork of a badly stitched together character, of course.
    In van Gogh's case, that's exactly the impression she meant to give in the event, courtesy of Outer God. It's even lampshaded in-universe.
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  19. #7659
    We Want to Protect that Head OverMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    In van Gogh's case, that's exactly the impression she meant to give in the event, courtesy of Outer God. It's even lampshaded in-universe.
    Something bad on purpose is generally still bad.

  20. #7660
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madarra View Post
    Not that hard to also point out that the translators never seem as loud as the complainers. It might be that reading the stories mellows you out more that reading about the stories ideas
    Of course to think sometime is terrible and have lots of criticism is still possible even when you're more quiet about it.

    If talking to translators in private has taught me anything about it anyway.

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