Night of the TATARI: Wild Mass Guessing and What if's?

[Rafflesiac]

Reminds me of Arifureta when

Spoiler:

[god possessed Yue.]

[fumei]

>aylesbury is a crimson moon revival ruse

I remember finding this as a theory on the JP wiki some like 3 years ago or something, so nice to see that it's more or less confirmed now.

[Comun]

I thought "aylesbury is a crimson moon revival ruse" was what the majority of the fandom has been expecting since 2001-2.

And my personal belief is that reviving either Brunestud or the dark six is not the only things the ritual can, as neither option seems too interesting for the Harweys. On that logic, Ortenrosse might know all the possibilities of the Aylesbury ritual but is being deceived about which possibility the other participants are going after.

[Petrikow]

I thought "aylesbury is a crimson moon revival ruse" was what the majority of the fandom has been expecting since 2001-2.

Was it?

I've been around for a long time and it's the first time I hear about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually speaking of which, given the whole

remake

　星の内海、ソラを覆う天蓋は謳う。
　祖に呪いあれ。
　人の世に呪いあれ。
　いまだ原理は定着せず。この星の礎はあまりに脆い。

thing that is suddenly narrated during the Vlov fight (with a Crimson Moon in the background) perhaps the purpose of the ritual is meant to impose Crimson Moon's principle on the world (essentially, bringing the moon onto earth). An in a sense, the "failure" of the ritual in the Extra world is that this didn't actually help humanity restore ether as maybe they'd hoped? And at that point they had to go to the actual fucking moon.

Actually maybe that's silly. I'm just throwing out random ideas.

[Rafflesiac]

I thought it was always about reviving the Dark Six.

[Reign]

I thought it was always about reviving the Dark Six.

Same, and the Dark Six and CM are listed separately on the DAA list.

[aldeayeah]

Well yes, but The Dark Six are so mysterious, people have been speculah forever

I had heard the Crimson Moon revival theory before, but it's not like there was any kind of consensus

The major revelations regarding Aylesbury were Tsuki 2 prelude / Character Material, Extra Material, FGO stuff, now Tsukihime remake. Each time lots of theories have been thrown around.

But the six sisters go back as long as Angel Notes. Of all the named recurrent characters from early TM, they are the most mysterious by far.

[Arete]

It's obviously the six fairies that made Excalibur. CM just wants to res them so that they can make the sword again and he can give it to Arc and make her even more like Artoria. In the end it's just another person obsessed with the image of a blond girl with a sword.

[madarra]

Now i think the Dark Six is a ritual to gather 6 DAA of TA blood to craft Real of the World. Which then used its Real world powers to delete fake AoM ether

They just screwed up the bring back AoG ether, probably got grain instead.

[Glazy]

If the whole "Ideal Blood = Crimson Moon Will on the World" is true. I guess that's why Zeltrech getting bit or not is the deciding factor in why the whole Tsuki and Fate world split. As IB/CM influence Second Magic and weaken Human Order.

[You]

Problem

Magecraft is defined as:

Q: Exactly what kind of power is magic? Is it something that can’t be used by normal people even if they obtained grimoires and studied them? Or is it something that is possible only with knowledge gained from performing magical rituals drawing on the Root?
A: It is an occult art, grounded in and actualized via imaginary elements. Magic harnesses mystic energy to interfere with phenomena; it is a shortcut that creates artificial changes in the world. ...That’s about as clear as fog, so to put it simply, it utilizes energy that doesn't exist in reality - mana - as elements to make reactions happen.
Above all, magic requires the generation of mystic energy, so people without magic circuits cannot practice magic no matter how diligently they study its theories.

However, there are cases when Church mysteries, particularly the Baptism Sacrament imply that anyone in the Church can use them:

The sole miracle that members of the Holy Church are permitted to acquire.
It is a simple ritual, which sublimates lost souls and sends them to where they belong according to the teachings of the Lord.

How can these statements be reconciled?

The first is to claim that all Church members who are capable of actualizing mysteries have Magic Circuits. Personally, I think this is a fine interpretation, others may disagree, vehemently at times.

The second is to claim that some Church members are capable of actualizing mysteries without having Magic Circuits. I propose the following as a hypothesis for how this can be achieved.

*****

Hypothesis

The breadth of the Church Magic Foundation “the Teachings of the Lord” allows Crowd Magecraft to be utilized in a way to collect magical energy that can then be applied to formulae and rituals which use Formalcraft. In essence, the Church magecraft that can be used without Magic Circuits is a form of Formalcraft.

Before getting into my theory of the case, some background.

*****

Background

Although most TM fans know what magecraft is and can give examples of magecraft, the fundamental workings are often misunderstood or put aside in favor of splitting hairs over the exact nature of mystery (quantitative).

We can split magecraft, generally, into four components: Command (Incantation/Ritual), System (Magic Foundation, Divine Organ, Divine Spirit), Program (Magic Formula), and the fuel (Magical Energy):

A general term for the act of artificially reenacting mysteries and miracles.
Although each school has its individual differences, it is basically a mechanism for using the magical energy in the practitioner’s body or the outside world, in order to reenact a predetermined phenomenon.
The practitioner sends an order (command) to the foundation (system) controlled by their school, and a pre-made function (program) is executed.
The “electrical current” needed to send that command and execute the program is magical energy.

The Magic Circuit has two roles:

Pseudo-nerves within the body of a magus.
Magic circuits are responsible for converting life force into magical energy, and for connecting to the grand magecraft formula that is the Foundation.

The first is producing and sending the Magical Energy that will fuel the formula and the second less well-known is the ability to connect to the Magic Foundation. In essence, it’s a wire carrying electricity.

A simple example: Aoko burning the Touko puppet.

The Command is:

Size

The Program is the formula:

size

The System the formula belongs to is the Kabbalah Magic Foundation.

And the magical energy comes from her Magic Circuit converting her Od to Magical Energy (see above image).

As an aside, some might be asking “what role does the Attribute (not elemental alignment) play in this?” Attribute is the characteristic of the magecraft. In this case, the Attribute would akin to “immolation.” She burns the puppet; this is magecraft that burns things.

The issue with being able to utilize magecraft without having Magic Circuits is two-fold. The first is the inability to create Magical Energy and therefore manipulate it. The second is the inability to connect to a Magic Foundation.

One fact we’re given about the nature of Church magecraft is that it utilizes “Crowd Magecraft,” where the magical energy of subordinates are funneled to someone:

"An unexpectedly tough enemy, isn't he," Rin said bitterly. "The magecraft the group used at the end was more terrifying than Yakou Yukinobu himself. It was close to the simple crowd rituals used in the Clock Tower but Crowd Magecraft forms that quickly hardly exists. If anything, it's the Holy Church's forte."

…

Truthfully, I came to the same conclusion. Yukinobu was an incredibly strong magus, but he wasn't an exception outside the rules like Ergo or Mushiki. Someone within the scope of imagination --the type who relayed an all-too-worldly sense of terror. I wasn't familiar with what that last magecraft was. Immediately using everyone as a single Magic Circuit, Crowd Magecraft.

…

From above, it looked as if a double circle had been drawn surrounding Akane and the Himorogi.

A circle of people.

If Rin or Gray were present, they would have noticed the people were joined by a Magical Energy Pass equal to the previous Crowd Magecraft. A similar Pass is created in Western Magecraft rituals; however, in this case, the practitioners are not merely connected. The masked practitioners have their individuality killed and are turned into literal circuits. Rather than a conductor and orchestra, this is more like a programmer and a computer.

As an aside, the last sentence is interesting. Much of Sanda’s narration in previous El-Melloi works is not original; he loves to pepper either quotes from materials books or fragments of Nasu’s notes in there. I suspect the Conductor/Orchestra comparison is either the Chelon Canticle Brigade-related or Holy Church related. Both of these groups use musical motifs, the Holy Church more so now than it did in the past. See Quartet and Mario’s nuns. This could be elucidating how Church crowd magecraft is organized in the battlefield.

*****

Theory of the Case

Let’s start with the most fundamental requirement for magecraft, magical energy. Magical energy is lifeforce, whether from the planet (Greater Source) or one’s self (Lesser Source). However, there are many forms that Magical Energy can take:

"Then I'll start off with something simple.
You know that magical energy is what you need to use magic, right? You can actually refer to anything that can activate magic as 'magical energy'.
There's an infinite variety of magical energy.
There are some that perform magic using their force of will, and there are some that use magic by paying a price other than themselves.

Focusing on different forms Magical Energy can take:

It was Lord Eulyphis— Rufleus Nuada-Re Eulyphis.
Of course, he did not frequent the Tower of London to sightsee.
Every step that the old man took in the closed-off fortress caused him to absorb more invisible energy.
In other words, the Magical Energy of the dead.
However, it wasn’t just the Magical Energy given off by the dead.
With the “concept” of the dead at its core, both the large amounts of Mana seeping from the Ley Lines and the Od given off unintentionally by the tourists could be considered by the Clock Tower as the Magical Energy of the dead.
As the Lord of the Department of Spiritual Invocation(Eulyphis), Rufleus used ancestral contracts and political means to carefully preserve this place, so he could use it to recover Magical Energy.

I propose that churches and other Christian holy sites serve as collection sites for Magical Energy. This can be magical energy from tourists or from parishioners. As this magical energy is both aligned and directed by “faith:”

"Further, it may have simply all just been a part of someone's plan. Rituals that use the name of the Lord to bind demons were in abundant supply in the past. Of course, being Magi, it's not like everyone is a pious follower of Christianity. We simply made use of the universalized concept of the Name of the Lord, under which all things must submit. In recent times, its similar to how an Internet Protocol works - well, I guess that explanation would just confuse you even more. With that line of reasoning, the use of Angels was an inevitable point on the road. Compared to using the Name of the Lord, it's a much easier Concept to make use of after all."
That I understood.
The Concept of God was one that had a distinct "colour" to it. You could also call it faith. In comparison to that, Angels came in many variations, like Guardian Angels and Fallen Angels. For this reason, the kinds of rituals that could be used exploiting Angels was far greater.

I believe this can also fall under Crowd Magecraft, where are group of people having been aligned with their faith are used to create a Magic Circuit that is capable of directing their Magical Energy (Od or willpower) to the Magic Foundation (God, we'll get into this one a bit later).

Although weak as a connection, the fact that the Fuyuki Church is established on one of the leyline foci in Fuyuki reinforces this argument. Furthermore, the Church Magic Foundation is the largest and most widespread in the world, and Western Magic Foundations are engraved into leylines:

"Most Western Magecraft is based on actualizing magecraft through the use of Magic Foundations and Magic Formulae engraved in leylines. On the other hand, magi who use Philosophy Magecraft actualize magecraft that is co-owned and maintained through the Philosophy Board and Magic Formulae they have constructed. In some sense, its like a library card. The authority within each Magic Formulae or the Philosophy Key may be different, so the books that can be borrowed are different; however, everyone is using the same Philosophy Board."

It is therefore possible that there is a stockpile (or rather constant flux) of Church-aligned magical energy flowing through the world. I believe it is access to this stockpile of magical energy (a secondary Greater Source so to speak) that allows Church mysteries to be actualized.

If this is the case, why does no one else tap into it?

1) It would require setting up shop in a church (this might have been the original purpose of the Chivalric Orders, to protect the magical energy “collection facilities” i.e. Holy Ground).

2) It’s hard, especially since the magical energy is faith aligned.

I was starting to understand what my master was saying. It was like I also heard in my lectures at the Clock Tower. Even if magecraft is omnipotent, the people using it are still limited.
"There are Mystic Codes that allow floating like that for extremely limited amounts of time. And there are low level spirits that could be summoned to help one glide. But in the end, long distance flight is something that's basically impossible in the modern era. If you try to push it anyways, it would take the equivalent magical energy of a Brand-level magus using the entire supply of their own territory to sustain it. And even if you attempt to follow a leyline as you do it, they aren't built in a way that is easy for people to draw energy from. It isn't reasonable to try and draw that much magical energy out of them on the fly."

Now, the second issue, the connection to the Magic Foundation. Magic Circuits are necessary to connect to the Magic Foundation – however, that was not always the case. In the Age of Gods, connection to what food has dubbed a “foundation (general term),” in this case, Divine Spirit, was based on, well, whatever the Divine Spirit wanted. That is to say, there was a ritualistic connection (bloodline, priesthood, weird shit, etc) or contract. In modern magecraft, exploiting a ritualistic connection to actualize a mystery is part of Formalcraft:

"Okay. Magi that lack an accumulated lineage of magi… like you, Shirou… use something that already has form to make magical energy.
This is a method established as a process in ancient times, using offerings and rituals to make contact with the divine mystery.
"They prepare a price to pay since their powers are not sufficient. This is called the formal craft.
This way, magic can be activated even if the caster's magical energy is sparse. This is because the magical energy used comes not from the caster but from somewhere else, so the caster only needs to perform the ritual."
"…But, well, you can't do it if you don't have the knowledge. It's impossible for you right now, and anyway, such a bloody method doesn't suit you."
"…Right. I also don't want to sacrifice a chicken or spend the whole evening praying in a magic circle."

This, of course, begs the question, what is the nature of the Christian God in the Nasuverse? I do not believe it is a Divine Spirit and my above statement does not in any way imply that Church magecraft is AOG magecraft (although like most magecraft is inspired by AOG magecraft). Rather:

“It is only natural that you should be dubious.
The Age of Gods has long since passed, and this planet has already settled into the physical laws humans recognize today.
To humans, gods are merely the system used to found religions.
No doubt humans nowadays do not think it plausible for the system to associate with humans.
Not yet, that is.
But that is talk of the future.
You are asking of the past.

Regardless of the origins of the Christian God, I believe modern Nasuverse Christian God is currently a system that is beginning to associate with humans. What Gilgamesh here calls “talk of the future.” And in truth, Holy Scripture Triten may demonstrate how that system is capable of interacting with humans.

Either way the Christian God is a system of belief. The Magic Foundation, the mysteries within Christianity, is one part of that larger system known as God. I speculate that the ritualistic application of oneself into priesthood (or some arbitrary Church rank) establishes a connection between the inductee and the Church Magic Foundation. In this fashion, one is capable of establishing a connection to a Magic Foundation without the need for Magic Circuits. Is there any evidence for such a connection? There is, but it is not exactly explicitly conclusive:

[sic]Q: Kirei's wife Ortensia is covered with wounds in the design draft, is it because she has a body similar to Caren's? Also, Command Spells appeared on Kirei due to the fact that he somehow possessed Magic Circuits despite being born in a non-magus lineage. Does this mean Caren also has Magic Circuits?

A: Kirei's wife is an albino (Note: wut, yellow-eyed-violet-haired-albino?), and is immune deficient. As a result, she can die from even a tiny wound, thus her body appears tattered. What Caren inherited is the aspect of "prone to be plagued by illnesses" (Note: There seems to be some sort of allusion here, because the word used for illnesses is "demon of disease"). This is truly an ordeal given by God.
About the Magic Circuits, a normal person rarely acquires Magic Circuits. You can consider such cases sudden mutations. However, Kirei is not of this type. Kirei's Circuits were a gift from the divine sacrament, rewarding his father Risei's years of pious worship. Kirei was born with "the right to recreate the miracles in the divine sacrament". This "right", in other words, was the Magic Circuits. Caren did not inherit the Circuits.

We know that Risei did not have Magic Circuits, yet was capable of performing a ritual (years of pious worship) and a mystery was actualized (Kirei was born with Magic Circuits). That is, by definition,

“. . . a method established as a process in ancient times, using offerings and rituals to make contact with the divine mystery.
"They prepare a price to pay since their powers are not sufficient. This is called the formal craft.

Putting these pieces together, this would be how someone without Magic Circuits would use the Baptism Sacrament under this model.

Command: Baptism Sacrament Incantation
Formula: Baptismal Sacrament
Foundation: Teachings of Christ
Source of Magical Energy: Your willpower/faith (a type of Lesser Source to use as a starter) or the stockpiled magical energy (a type of Greater Source).
Connection to the Magic Foundation: Your established ritualistic connection to the Magic Foundation.

This would mean the array of mysteries available to Church members without Magic Circuits is limited (which would fit with depictions in canon). Without Magic Circuits, one cannot manipulate Magical Energy. Therefore, things that require the direct application of Magical Energy (reinforcement, creation of Black Keys) would be impossible. Under this model, Church members who do not have Magic Circuits are only capable of activating established rituals that their status allows them to activate. I speculate that as one takes on more ritualistic obligations, more of the Magic Foundation opens up to them as certain requirements are met.

So what? What does this change?

Nothing really. This is just a way of rationalizing certain things.

An example, Noel has a Sacrament that makes her halberd lighter. One would expect if it ran out of Magical Energy, it would stop working and it would feel like it weighed 1 ton, its original weight.

“Instead of trying to enchant things with anti-heresy properties by inscribing prayers onto them, they had the groundbreaking idea of instead turning the prayer itself into a weapon, and so render it a potent anti-heresy implement."

The relevant question is "how is the Magical Energy restored when it runs out?"

If Noel has Magic Circuits, she can just inject Magical Energy into the Sacrament. On the other hand, if she does not have Magic Circuits that should not be possible. If my hypothesis is correct, Noel (without Magic Circuits) could place the halberd within a magic circle and perform a ritual (most likely pray), and the leyline and Magic Foundation would fill the Sacrament back up, allowing her to use it again. This would mean Executors without Magic Circuits are at extreme disadvantage in combat due to the inability to readily access Magical Energy without a lengthy rituals. This may also be why Crowd Magecraft is the Church's forte. Due to their limitations, they've found ways to optimize and simplify lengthy rituals by utilizing multiple practitioners.

*****

Limitations

Why doesn't everyone?

The main argument I foresee against this model of magecraft would be: “Ah yes, then why doesn’t every major religion do this so normies can use Magecraft?”

First, this model rests on the assumption that the Church Magic Foundation is based on the same schematic that Solomon left, what Random has dubbed Solomonic Foundations. These are magical theories deliberately carved into leylines that are meant to resemble the former contracts between Divine Spirits and magi. In that sense, we’re limited to Western religions. I don’t think there is a second Western religion large enough or prominent enough to allow for this. The Kabbalah Magic Foundation seems entirely mystical and I doubt the Jewish Faith wants much to do with it; although there could be Jewish Demon Hunters, who knows.

The Unknown Unknowns

What I have done above is a synthesis under the assumption that “we have all the pieces of the puzzle, just not the answer.” It is entirely possible we do not have all pieces to understand Church magecraft. It may be that when the answer is presented, that answer will be dependent on new information, rather than being made up of only existing information.

On my end, there are leaps of logic. The most prominent case is that churches act as magical energy gathering sites. Based on the source text, we know that churches can certainly act as faith-aligned magical energy gathering sites – however, that does not necessarily mean they do in canon. There is nothing that indicates this is a role that churches play in the Nasuverse.

The second is the ritualistic binding of a Church Member to the Magic Foundation which would let them access the mysteries. Having limited insight into the liturgy, I am uncertain what form this could take and the formality of such a ritual.

Always Kill Your Darlings

There are three reasons why I like this hypothesis that have nothing to do with canon.

One, the reliance on land is both a weakness in the hypothesis as well as a strength. This weakness is that it ties Church magecraft with the land. If the predominate source of Magical Energy is from the land (whereas the Greater Source mana is usually in the air) there’s a certain awkwardness to its ease of use. On the other hand, perhaps this difficulty with accessing Church-aligned Magical Energy is the reason why the formulae used are not usually nature-inference techniques.

The aesthetic strength of aligning Church Magecraft with the land is the well-known obsession of the Medieval Church with procuring land. There are multiple theological treatises that insist on the right of the Church to own land. Crowd Magecraft centering on places of worship to stockpile magical energy fits well with these historical events. The Case Files timeline says the rise of the Church was from 300 - 500 AD, these treatises were written much later in the 1300's. However, I believe the sentiments, Church likes land, land means more Magical Energy, align.

Two, Magical Energy is euphemistically called “Prayer Power.” This hypothesis validates that terminology. In a way, it is through the power of prayer that Church members can actualize mysteries.

Three, a hierarchical ritualistic connection with the Magic Foundation is reminiscent of the Greek and Roman Mystery cults where one is initiated, closed off. If sacraments (general term) are indeed an AOG mystery, it would make sense for modern-day Holy Church Sacraments to mirror that initiation process.

I think these are neat nuggets. However, they have nothing really to do with canon and the source material. Thus, these are my biases.

Further Questions

What do Church members with Magic Circuits have access to in the Magic Foundation that those without Magic Circuits do not?

My guess is that those with Magic Circuits have access to a wider breadth of formulae. Having access to higher levels of Od and Mana, they should also have access to more potent formulae. Conversely, as the Name of the Lord is still a colored concept, faith is likely required. In Fromsoft terms, there are some spells with an Intelligence requirement, others with a Faith requirement and some with both. It would be interesting to consider.

The ability to construct formulae to create new magecraft?

One thing I’ve struggled with during the writing of this, is whether or not this model allows for the creation of formulae through combining existing rituals and formulae. This is how “new” magecraft is generally created in Western and Eastern systems and the Clock Tower patent system is based on this. Instinctively, I don’t believe that a Formalcraft system where one uses codified rituals to actualize mysteries is open to such creative endeavors. On the other hand, I don’t see why not.

In summary, I believe that if Holy Church members do not have Magic Circuits, it is possible to rationalize a system with existing source material that allows Church members limited use of Magical Energy and therefore Magecraft. Whether or not the system that I’ve proposed is the correct one will depend on time and the whims of the authors.

Any feedback, questions, concurring opinions, dissenting opinions, or things I might have overlooked, are more than welcome.

If anyone is wondering why I did this:
I saw this message on the Public Karoshi Discord this morning

I think Sacraments in general follow the same general “rule” as Baptism Rites in that they’re powered by sheer faith. The Executor is using sheer willpower to turn their body’s od into fuel for the spell, and their faith is so strong they can just will this into being. Those Executors who do have circuits like Kirei or Ciel have the advantage of not needing to do this, but most do not have circuits and thus this is their method

This felt wrong on many levels, but one thing caught my eye -- using sheer willpower -- I was reminded of the FSN quote about willpower being a type of Magical Energy and tried to synthesize something with that and Crowd Magecraft.

[All fictions]

As an aside, the last sentence is interesting. Much of Sanda’s narration in previous El-Melloi works is not original; he loves to pepper either quotes from materials books or fragments of Nasu’s notes in there.

Or from Mahoyo or Knk.

Let’s start with the most fundamental requirement for magecraft, magical energy. Magical energy is lifeforce, whether from the planet (Greater Source) or one’s self (Lesser Source). However, there are many forms that Magical Energy can take:

Focusing on different forms Magical Energy can take:

I propose that churches and other Christian holy sites serve as collection sites for Magical Energy. This can be magical energy from tourists or from parishioners. As this magical energy is both aligned and directed by “faith:”

Oh, there's also that Mahoyo passage about Christmas:

Christmas comes but once a year.	祭りとは日常の中の非日常だ。
It was a singular time for endings and new beginnings.	終わり、蘇り、やり直しを象徴する特異点である。
In Japan, the modern holiday dated back only about a hundred years, and celebrated Christ's birth only in name-with all its latter-day trappings, it was neither a pure homage nor corruption of the festival that inspired it.	聖誕祭クリスマスなど百年程度の歴史しかなく、形骸的な記念日にすぎないとしても、営みの環わに組みこまれ ているのなら偽物も本物もない。
Regardless, there was a significant increase in the land's mana during festivals.	祭りにおいて、土地の魔マ力ナの増大は著いちじるしい。
Such charged distortions were a boon to a mage's craft, be it creative or destructive.	造るにしろ壊すにしろ、蓄えられてきた歪みは術者の魔術行使を助けるだろう。

[Random]

look mom, I'm on TV

This is an excellent post. There are snippets here that are thoughts I've had myself (especially concerning "prayer power" as a term), but I wouldn't have had the spoons to refine it all into a coherent hypothesis.

One additional thing that came to my mind that you haven't mentioned here - though admittedly it's extremely circumstantial - is how this might connect to the east-west separation when it comes to the frequency of demonic possession phenomena, especially given what we know about the relationship between the Sixth Imaginary Factor and wishes. If there is a firm connection between

prayers

wishes

and possession, it would make sense to see an increase in frequency, as sort of a side effect or inadvertent consequence of the nature of accumulating faith.

- - - Updated - - -

Come to think of it, wouldn't this be in line with what CM3 said way back when about Foundations using people as a medium in the same way as flora/fauna, the sky, and the earth?

[Comun]

I like how the rigidness of this system indirectly and probably unintentionally justified the broadness and arbitrarity of Stigmas.

Caren was branded a Stigmata for having the random inborn power to replicate devil symptoms, which by all means should count as psychic power.
Yuika's Stigma is implied to be likewise an inborn anomaly, so the second example checks out with the first.
But then Chitose is a Stigmata for having the Sacri Chiodi implanted in her arms, which is clearly a bodily modification using pre-existing relics.
And Kotomine's FGO profile refers to his leakage of Angra mud as a Stigma, and his case is more confirmed than Chitose's to be a physical alteration pretty late into his life.
Lastly the ancestor Narbareck claims to belong in Burial Agency because she has a Stigma, and since the current Narbareck is still with the BA, the Narbareck Stigma must be hereditary, unlike the previous examples.

Stigmas are a variety of powers that we know that if we weren't dealing with the Church's terminology, would all be classified as completely different things.
But with the church's system is as restrictive as You's post proposes, it makes sense for Stigmas to refer to anything that works independently from the system. At least the Kotomine father and daughter stigma powers have nothing do with land. And taking the example of how Noel theoretically would need to recharge her halberd at a church, I suppose the reason why Chitose is a Stigmata and Hansa isn't despite both being modified with holy weapons is that the Sacri Chiodi would never need to recharge. (Watch this age poorly when Narita calls Hansa a Stigmata next volume)

[You]

Come to think of it, wouldn't this be in line with what CM3 said way back when about Foundations using people as a medium

That's a very good point. Forgot about that.

I like how the rigidness of this system indirectly and probably unintentionally justified the broadness and arbitrarity of Stigmas.

Other than the term stigma (i.e. social stigma), the Holy Church's classification of Stigmata is unintuitive.
From what I understand irl, Stigmata are revered and seen as holy symbols, yet with the examples you've given in-universe holders of "Stigmata" are stigmatized. And it would seem Stigmata is used to classify "heresy."
What could be the reason behind this and why detract so much?

[Kamera]

Something something Catholic Priests can perform rites with the help from the Holy Spirit.

[Random]

A friend of mine just pointed out that Delusional Illusion and Thought Partitioning are actually very similar. Given the relative proximity of Iran and Egypt, along with the implication from Sion that Atlas's primary language is Arabic. I don't really have any more pins or cool red string to tie to them, but I wonder if it's worth looking for any more connections.

Considering that Zero was written by Urobuchi in 2006, any links would most likely be retroactive, so there's no reason from a Doylist perspective to assume they always existed, but I get the feeling that those knots would be tied if the writing staff noticed.

When was the last time they thought about Hundred Faces anyway?

[You]

A friend of mine just pointed out that Delusional Illusion and Thought Partitioning are actually very similar. Given the relative proximity of Iran and Egypt, along with the implication from Sion that Atlas's primary language is Arabic. I don't really have any more pins or cool red string to tie to them, but I wonder if it's worth looking for any more connections.

"Yeah. It would also be okay to call it yin-yang, light and darkness, right and wrong. It refers to a state where something derived from one original object has been split into two. This, in yin and yang terms, is sometimes known as Ryougi [両儀]."
"--- Ryougi, that's -"
"Correct, Shiki's family name. Her dual personality, it was something decided from the remote past. Did she obtain a dual personality because she was a member of the Ryougi family, or was it that they knew a Shiki would be born sometime and took the name Ryougi? It's probably the latter.
The Ryougi clan is a dynasty, just like the Asagami and the Fujou clans. They are families who are trying to create humans who are beyond human, and used various methods to ensure the birth of an heir. All so that they could pass on their family's 'inheritance'.
The Ryougi clan is especially interesting. They knew that if they had a supernatural ability, they would one day be destroyed by the civilized world. So they thought up a supernatural ability that would let them appear as normal human beings. --- Hey, Kokutou. Those people we call professionals, why is it that they can only reach the top in one area?"
Caught off guard by the sudden question, I was unable to give her an answer.
Today was a very long day, and the information coming into my head was exceeding my limits. On top of which --- To think that Ryougi was born into such a family, just why ---.
"That's because no matter how perfect a body, or how high the amount of natural aptitude you are born with, you can only put one talent into one person. The higher you climb, the more you are restricted as to what other peaks you can go up, until in the end you cannot climb any others.
The Ryougi clan solved that problem. By imbuing one body with a countless number of personalities. It's the same as a computer. If you put hundreds upon hundreds of pieces of software into one piece of hardware called Shiki, a professional in all areas is created. That's why their name is Shiki [式]. The Shiki [式] in Shikigami [式神]. The Shiki [式] when you talk about a numerical formula [數式]. A program that fulfils any task required of it perfectly. An empty doll that possesses countless numbers of identities, and can be modified by putting in another personality with different morals, thought patterns, even senses ---."
Did Shiki already know this?

Think it all just comes back to this explanation.

[Kirei_fucker69]

A friend of mine just pointed out that Delusional Illusion and Thought Partitioning are actually very similar. Given the relative proximity of Iran and Egypt, along with the implication from Sion that Atlas's primary language is Arabic. I don't really have any more pins or cool red string to tie to them, but I wonder if it's worth looking for any more connections.

Considering that Zero was written by Urobuchi in 2006, any links would most likely be retroactive, so there's no reason from a Doylist perspective to assume they always existed, but I get the feeling that those knots would be tied if the writing staff noticed.

When was the last time they thought about Hundred Faces anyway?

I thought Hassan of the Hundred Faces just had DID and that the Grail let them manifest as separate bodies. No real technique or anything, it's just the way they were born. The wiki apparently says they could shapeshift into whatever personality or something, but I still don't see how that's like Thought Partitioning.

[Glazy]

Snip

Me reading a book about the importance of praying: OMG You reference??

But anyways in that book it eerily sorta match up with You's theory. The one thing that caught my eye was the constant mentioning that the Church was one body and that by praying we are participating in that body (I.E crowd magecraft). Another thing was that the mention that the priest was "spiritual temple" for God to flow through. This doesn't add much to the theory but it was fun seeing some parallel IRL .