Fate/Apocrypha Anime (no spoilers)

[I3uster]

Since the comaprison with DEENfate came up, I think this one is actually better just because its pacing is a lot better than DEENfate, even with the lull towards the end.

I think as far as direction and flow go it's actually pretty good because I'm never actually bored while watching Apo, it's just that there's nothing really beyond the flash.

The best comparison is probably with Zero, again, the gold standard of Fate spinoffs. Zero uses a thematic component from HF and spins its own central conflict out of that, Apo tries to imitate the beats of the Fate route without the same substance. Ironically while Zero is more directly related to the source, Apo is the one that relies on you remembering stuff from FSN and go I RECOGNIZE THIS. Sieg and Jeanne tries to be Saber and Shirou but while the latter two had actual chemistry and an ideological connection the only reason Jeanne likes Sieg is...protector instinct and teenage hormones? Sieg doesn't even seem to be interested in Jeanne until the very end I guess.

Who even is the central character of this? I just default to Sieg because he has an arc and a lot of screentime. Maybe it's Mordred and Shishigo? But they get the midboss realization of not actually wanting the grail to no greater thematic point than "the magical wish granting device will not fix a problem thats in your head". Thanks afternoon cartoon.

If Sieg really is it what's the fucking point? He has become more human? Is that it, he's a real boy now? If you're not a real human but act like a human there's no difference between you and a human, is that what this is trying to do? Is this an Asimov story with an equal measure of added ineptitude and anime tits? I don't get it.

[Wandering Swordwoman]

I want to see the night at the old man's house. "Maths with Sieg" and "Tumlin' Down", bed edition.

Sadly it was changed in anime, he didn't carry Jeanne

[Trubo]

Sieg and Jeanne tries to be Saber and Shirou

What does that make Astolfo then, Rin?

[I3uster]

I mean kinda? Their relationship starts out from the natural nasuverse order decreeing Astolfo should turn Sieg in but he's too soft to comply, and he takes on the mentor/showing the ropes role for Sieg (though a part of that does hit Jeanne, but it's not like Saber never did the thing explainer).

[asterism42]

"Woops I forgot the name of my Noble Phantasm" is a Tohsaka-style screw up.

[John D. Pliskin]

Finally saw episode 25 tonight! Right after a lengthy re-watch of the last third of Episode 23 and complete re-watch of episode 24 for heightened dramatic investment. It was all a good reminder too that in the end, this was a Sieg/Jeanne show.

Considering how late it is where I'm at-- 11:30 PM-range at the time this message will be concluded, or 6.5 hours before work (really, I lose too much sleep on weeknights over mulling Fate/things sometimes), I won't be giving full impressions now. I definitely want some more time to get more thoughts together about the episode and the series overall (the short of it: I liked it!), so I'll be coming back later. This thread won't be dropped by everyone like a hot potato anytime soon, right?

That being said, I at least have this to say-- I definitely did not expect a "Last Episode-like" ending, or for the core of the epilogue to hinge this much on the Sieg/Jeanne relationship.

And hell, "Last Episode" is actually something I've not experienced first hand; all I "know" of it is that Shirou and Artoria reunite in Avalon or something in a special scene after completing all the routes in Realta Nua. Yeah, I've only played FSN once via the vanilla FSN translation by MirrorMoon + Realta Nua voicework; I have the RN routes & the "Jack patch"(?) installed, but haven't gone through it properly a second time around.

So you can imagine there being Last Episode-related implications to Apocrypha's epilogue that may have flown over my head.



One question (or one line of questioning), for now: Was Jeanne removed from the Throne of Heroes? Is it only the 2004-era 'copy' that's with Sieg, or is it her 'complete self' that's reunited with Sieg... forever and ever? (And so what the heck, does this mean anything for Jeanne in FGO? Guess I could ask the same of Artoria as her FGO presence relates to Last Episode, come to think of it.) It's irritating that, AFAIK, this whole existentialist aspect of the Servants' "souls" or the "copies" of them hardly get addressed in Fate/anime. I remember Celenike derisively calling Astolfo a 'copy', but beyond that...?

[Tepanyakigo]

Since the comaprison with DEENfate came up, I think this one is actually better just because its pacing is a lot better than DEENfate, even with the lull towards the end.

I think as far as direction and flow go it's actually pretty good because I'm never actually bored while watching Apo, it's just that there's nothing really beyond the flash.

The best comparison is probably with Zero, again, the gold standard of Fate spinoffs. Zero uses a thematic component from HF and spins its own central conflict out of that, Apo tries to imitate the beats of the Fate route without the same substance. Ironically while Zero is more directly related to the source, Apo is the one that relies on you remembering stuff from FSN and go I RECOGNIZE THIS. Sieg and Jeanne tries to be Saber and Shirou but while the latter two had actual chemistry and an ideological connection the only reason Jeanne likes Sieg is...protector instinct and teenage hormones? Sieg doesn't even seem to be interested in Jeanne until the very end I guess.

Who even is the central character of this? I just default to Sieg because he has an arc and a lot of screentime. Maybe it's Mordred and Shishigo? But they get the midboss realization of not actually wanting the grail to no greater thematic point than "the magical wish granting device will not fix a problem thats in your head". Thanks afternoon cartoon.

If Sieg really is it what's the fucking point? He has become more human? Is that it, he's a real boy now? If you're not a real human but act like a human there's no difference between you and a human, is that what this is trying to do? Is this an Asimov story with an equal measure of added ineptitude and anime tits? I don't get it.

I agree with you! At least I am not alone to think that this is "Fate Route" wannabe...
Talking about coincidence that both Sieg and Shirou have something "implanted" inside of their bodies, Jeanne and Saber are both blondes with similar design but different boobies size

[Cipher One]

One question (or one line of questioning), for now: Was Jeanne removed from the Throne of Heroes? Is it only the 2004-era 'copy' that's with Sieg, or is it her 'complete self' that's reunited with Sieg... forever and ever? (And so what the heck, does this mean anything for Jeanne in FGO? Guess I could ask the same of Artoria as her FGO presence relates to Last Episode, come to think of it.) It's irritating that, AFAIK, this whole existentialist aspect of the Servants' "souls" or the "copies" of them hardly get addressed in Fate/anime. I remember Celenike derisively calling Astolfo a 'copy', but beyond that...?

As far as I remember, that was never explained in the novels. Most I've heard from others is that Jeanne basically just ups and leaves the Throne somehow and later she's reunited with Sieg. One headcanon I have and remember reading from others is that Sieg used the power of the grail to reunite with her via a wish. Honestly that's the only thing that comes to mind that could explain it.

Either way though, nothing really excuses the fact that it's basically just a rip-off of Last Episode only without the substance that made the original one great.

[You]

If Sieg really is it what's the fucking point? He has become more human? Is that it, he's a real boy now? If you're not a real human but act like a human there's no difference between you and a human, is that what this is trying to do? Is this an Asimov story with an equal measure of added ineptitude and anime tits? I don't get it.

I think its this

BB :: You humans cannot alleviate this darkness. Especially not you alone. In any case — [static] “Will you pardon humanity, or not?” The results of a vote on this question by all the lifeforms on the Earth, from the past to present, resulted in a 49 to 51 passage of the motion to eradicate humanity. The opinions in your favor came largely from plants and animals. Unable to speak, they said they would forgive you. Opinions against you came largely from within your own ranks. Possessing intelligence, you grieved that you would not repent. You understand? You are the only ones who prey upon your own kind for profit. You chose self-destruction. You chose self-destruction. You chose self-destruction.

Sieg being an neutral observer of humanity since he is a homunculus and was able to experience humanity, the good and the bad came to the conclusion that even if there are sad things, humanity still strives on.
And that's the answer that saves Jeanne.

I guess its a bit clearer in the novel:

"Sieg, can I ask one more time?"
"Ah-"
"Do you still believe that?"
Man’s good and evil. Humanity itself. But-
Without any hesitation, Sieg nodded.
"Of course. There's a lot of things I don't know. Or perhaps, this is something so complicated that you can't explain after just one life. However, from the little, the little that I do understand."
Once, these innocent eyes were dyed with anguish. They cannot lie to deceive, they can only convey the truth. Human evil is something intrinsic. Even then, he will never abandon believing in the innate goodness of man.
The newborn boy tilted his head, thinking. Good and Evil. Good is regarded as what is right, still, evil is suffering of those who had been pushed down.
He still hadn't found his answer.
-Ahh. Even so, this boy still accepted everything in front of him.

[Cipher One]

Sieg being an neutral observer of humanity since he is a homunculus and was able to experience humanity, the good and the bad came to the conclusion that even if there are sad things, humanity still strives on.
And that's the answer that saves Jeanne.

Someone pointed this out to me on Reddit. They said that, aside from the help Sieg provides in combat, if not for his existence then Jeanne more than likely wouldn't have been nearly broken by Shakespeare which in itself was what led to her nearly accepting Amakusa's deal.

Knowing that, I keep wondering to myself how Shakespeare could have broken Jeanne if one took Sieg out of the equation.

[Rue]

Knowing that, I keep wondering to myself how Shakespeare could have broken Jeanne if one took Sieg out of the equation.

She probably wouldn't have been 'broken' at all & stayed as a unyielding 'Ruler' since from the story, it was regarding Sieg that led to her being guilt ridden & confused...maybe.

[Keyne]

She probably wouldn't have been 'broken' at all & stayed as a unyielding 'Ruler' since from the story, it was regarding Sieg that led to her being guilt ridden & confused...maybe.

The moment Shakes showed her Gilles, it was all over. First Folio could show her more travesties Gilles commited or how he changed into Caster.
Shakes's real goal was just to stall her.

[LJ3]

Not really

She was sad but accepted it

pretty much said in the episode

so yeah, Sieg was the chink in her armor

[Keyne]

As far as I remember, that was never explained in the novels. Most I've heard from others is that Jeanne basically just ups and leaves the Throne somehow and later she's reunited with Sieg. One headcanon I have and remember reading from others is that Sieg used the power of the grail to reunite with her via a wish. Honestly that's the only thing that comes to mind that could explain it.

Either way though, nothing really excuses the fact that it's basically just a rip-off of Last Episode only without the substance that made the original one great.

Wasn't it in Prototype that Manaka actually ventured to the Reverse Side and saw a gentle but quiet dragon, always in wait?
I also read somewhere that the Throne of Heroes and the Reverse Side are connected, but it's actually very hard to enter there, so it took Jeanne a shitload of time to do it.

[Rue]

Jeanne as strong willed w/ unyielding faith as she is can be seen in her Interlude in FGO (her NP one where crotchballs McClown was playing as the devil I think?).

[Bloble]

Zero, again, the gold standard of Fate spinoffs

That's Prisma you baka.

Anyway, Apoc is a 6/10 anime with a handful of 9/10 moments. Perfectly serviceable and nothing more. You'll forget about it by this time next year.

It did have the best OST of any Fate adaptation since the original, though, so that gets it props.

[DreamsRequiem]

Yep, I love the OST. The main theme just gives that heroic epic vibe. I have to really hand it to the composer, really did well with OST, and had the musical expertise to actually pronounce its scenes with the right theme at the right time.

That said: Fuck Miura for ruining UBW with his fucking backwards musical mindset. The music is one of the most important parts of a show, and the fact that he didn't want to show off how talented the composer could be because he was scared it would overtake scene just shows he doesn't know how to mix them well. I am still really salty with UBW's musical direction, yes.

[Wandering Swordwoman]

Yep, I love the OST. The main theme just gives that heroic epic vibe. I have to really hand it to the composer, really did well with OST, and had the musical expertise to actually pronounce its scenes with the right theme at the right time.

That said: Fuck Miura for ruining UBW with his fucking backwards musical mindset. The music is one of the most important parts of a show, and the fact that he didn't want to show off how talented the composer could be because he was scared it would overtake scene just shows he doesn't know how to mix them well. I am still really salty with UBW's musical direction, yes.

There is animation director, sound director, and series director too you know?

Fate/Stay Night also don't really have those battle between heroes vibe

You should say fuck the composer not the director

[castor212]

I guess its a bit clearer in the novel

staple answer in this thread

[Mcjon01]

Wasn't it in Prototype that Manaka actually ventured to the Reverse Side and saw a gentle but quiet dragon, always in wait?
I also read somewhere that the Throne of Heroes and the Reverse Side are connected, but it's actually very hard to enter there, so it took Jeanne a shitload of time to do it.

It was on her way to Labyrinth