my opinions on Fate and tsukihimes casts.

[lantzblades]

Alright back on the old BL I tried to give my opinions straight away about fate & Tsukihime. I’m doing that again here save that I won’t be rolling up a score system. Just my opinions straight away, I’ll be discussing them character by character

Feel free to contest my points as I bring them up though please do keep it low key as I’m just stating an opinion not ramming buttons hoping to piss you guys off. And so try to keep it to the character in question (I know that’s hard but I want an ordered discussion without repeating the same points a bunch)

We’ll start with fate. And to kick it off right let’s deal with Sakura as she’s the biggest stumbling block in discussion of the fate characters due to her position.

In concept: Sakura is the broken little girl we’re supposed to feel sorry for. Fate didn’t need someone in that position honestly. Worse yet it’s all made evident and dealt with in one route. The other characters have their problems show elsewhere but Sakura does get that.

In practice: Mach speed failure. Her issues are hyper compressed and simply expected to garner sympathy. Her screen time is criminal and when she gets it not really utilized.

The flipside: In Sakura’s case dark Sakura. She is sakura, crazy yes but sakura nonetheless. And honestly I like her. She presents a villain like Nero who I liked in Tsukihime. Just kinda, smash! Because she wants what she wants. She was certainly a welcome addition because Zouken was a god damn crap villain.

As a heroine: My definition of heroine is a proactive character. By this definition Sakura simply does not measure up

The issues: if anyone is to blame for her problems it’s Tokomi and Zouken, not Shinji,rin or anyone else. Her’s are bad no doubt but due to the pacing and non interaction with Sakura prior to HF the feelings that are supposed to come through fall flat.

Final opinion: do I hate her? No. Do I like her? Yes however I can’t invest myself in her struggle as I do that of other characters in those situations.

[Gilgamesh]

This cannot end well...

[TypeWannabe]

No, it can. Mike can respect other people's opinion, and the thread title quite clearly states opinion. Mike will of course argue but there's not much anyone can do to sway lantz.

[Gilgamesh]

No, it can. Mike can respect other people's opinion, and the thread title quite clearly states opinion. Mike will of course argue but there's not much anyone can do to sway lantz.

Hey, I never mentioned Mike. Don't put words in my mouth. I just said this cannot end well...

[Hyarion]

How about this? PM lantz any complaints, disagreements, anything you think might start a long discussion -- and keep this thread relatively clutter-free so he can continue.

[Mike1984]

In concept: Sakura is the broken little girl we’re supposed to feel sorry for. Fate didn’t need someone in that position honestly. Worse yet it’s all made evident and dealt with in one route. The other characters have their problems show elsewhere but Sakura does get that.

What the fuck are you talking about? Sakura isn't just a "broken little girl we're supposed to feel sorry for". She's a perfectly well-rounded character with a well-thought-out past and situation, and an insane amount of mental strength.

In practice: Mach speed failure. Her issues are hyper compressed and simply expected to garner sympathy.

To me it worked just fine.

Her screen time is criminal and when she gets it not really utilized.

Outside of HF, yes, her lack of involvement is somewhat annoying. But in HF, I think that her involvement is fine, and further I think it's utilised perfectly effectively.

The flipside: In Sakura’s case dark Sakura. She is sakura, crazy yes but sakura nonetheless. And honestly I like her. She presents a villain like Nero who I liked in Tsukihime. Just kinda, smash! Because she wants what she wants.

Again, this I just do not agree with. She's not truly "Sakura", in any meaningful sense, and I don't like her.

She was certainly a welcome addition because Zouken was a god damn crap villain.

Really? Because I'd say he was a damn good villain, actually. In control of what was going on, but flawed enough to be beatable.

As a heroine: My definition of heroine is a proactive character. By this definition Sakura simply does not measure up

Well, this is just stupid, really. "Heroine" in the sense of an eroge just means "person the main character has sex with". Plus, Sakura isn't able to be proactive, because Zouken can control her and can kill her on a whim.

The issues: if anyone is to blame for her problems it’s Tokomi and Zouken, not Shinji,rin or anyone else.

Yes, which is why the only version of Sakura that truly blames Rin is the insane, evil verison. But, nevertheless, when you're in that situation it's pretty understandable to feel a certain amount of jealousy and resentment towards your sister who has lived a life of apparent luxury whilst you suffered, and has made no apparent effort to help you.

As for Shinji, well, he's an asshole who died a lot more painlessly than he deserved to, IMO, and honestly he should be the proud owner of his very own Darwin award....

Her’s are bad no doubt but due to the pacing and non interaction with Sakura prior to HF the feelings that are supposed to come through fall flat.

To you, maybe. Certainly not to me.

[Hyarion]

Not that I expected him to take my advice.

[Cruor]

No, it can. Mike can respect other people's opinion, and the thread title quite clearly states opinion. Mike will of course argue but there's not much anyone can do to sway lantz.

But he does say some are unjustified or plain wrong/misinterpreted. I think Creative is the only person's opinion he actually respected that was different from his own (was it Creative? Pretty sure).

[eddyak]

I'm gonna agree that the whole worm rape brother rape thing was a bit too much to swallow, especially since you find it out in the space of less than one route- it was pretty unnecessary from the reader's viewpoint (though it may not have seemed that way on the drawing board- its reveal was just a little badly done).

And, honestly, I'd never have expected that the nice girl who wakes you up in the mornings could be a part of the HGW, let alone the center of the grittiest, most raw route in the game. They were saving that for the grand finale, but, let's face it, the contrast is pretty jarring.

[Erlkonig]

Mike can respect other people's opinion

What the fuck are you talking about?

.....

[Hermitfold]

Well, HF honestly was kind of jarring especially after UBW.

[Mike1984]

But he does say some are unjustified or plain wrong/misinterpreted. I think Creative is the only person's opinion he actually respected that was different from his own (was it Creative? Pretty sure).

I can respect other people's opinion if I see that it actually makes sense and is just a difference of axioms, but Lantz hasn't actually justified any of his statements, so....

[lantzblades]

How about this? PM lantz any complaints, disagreements, anything you think might start a long discussion -- and keep this thread relatively clutter-free so he can continue.

I don't mind long discussions. just keep it about the character presented.

I felt I needed to make this thread to clear up the misconceptions people have about my opinions regarding the characters. I separate myself when I write and roleplay and I'm often arguing the characters from a writing perspective.

What the fuck are you talking about?

CONCEPT is not the result. concept is the basic idea. and at base Sakura is the broken little girl.

and further I think it's utilised perfectly effectively.

not really. I understand what they were going for but it could have done with more doing stuff then putting about the house before bam climax. go out on a real date geez. or something.

She's not truly "Sakura"

Angra cannot produce character traits. it can only bend them. they must be present in the character. Ergo as warped a mirror as it is. it is sakura.

Really?

he sucked. part of this is due to the act structure of fate stay night. but even without it he's weak as hell as a villain. Gil and Kirei are far better villains and when the "heroine" out bad guys you hang it up and go home.

Well, this is just stupid, really.

it's an alternate definition, not stupid.

Plus, Sakura isn't able to be proactive,

not my problem.

fact is I do like her but when i contrast her with Kohaku (who i'll get to when I get to tsukihime) she gets destroyed in the feel for me department.

[Mcjon01]

Honestly, as long as it was compared to the other routes, HF still felt too compressed to me. It takes a lot to get me interested in a broken bird archetype in the first place since they're not my usual cup of tea, and I feel like Sakura could have used, at the very least, a bit more screen time and foreshadowing in the other routes. Something to hook you in ahead of time, and get you thinking about what could be going on there before you have a chance to find out. There just wasn't enough time for me to invest that much in her character, which is probably why I'm still mostly ambivalent about her.

Though, who knows, maybe my opinion will change if I ever get around to reading HA.

[Mike1984]

not really. I understand what they were going for but it could have done with more doing stuff then putting about the house before bam climax. go out on a real date geez. or something.

Not really. The story wouldn't have worked with them doing things like that (whilst Sakura was "ill"), and to me their relationship was perfectly believeable.

Angra cannot produce character traits. it can only bend them. they must be present in the character. Ergo as warped a mirror as it is. it is sakura.

To some extent, yes, but every human has some negative traits in them, which will be magnified by AM, so, whilst Angra Mainyu will warp different people in different ways, the result will still be very different from the initial person.

he sucked. part of this is due to the act structure of fate stay night. but even without it he's weak as hell as a villain.

No, he's not. He's very good at setting the situation up and manipulating people, and he's utterly (but believeably) vile as a human being.

when the "heroine" out bad guys you hang it up and go home.

Well, that's part of the point. Zouken was a victim of playing around with forces he didn't quite understand, and with the life of a girl who turned out to be stronger than he expected. But, even so, that does not make him a bad villain. He did the job he was there to do very well.

it's an alternate definition, not stupid.

It's stupid to use a totally different definition of "heroine" to rate them as one than the definition that is used to determine whether or not they're classed as one in the first place....

Of course Sakura doesn't fit your definition of heroine, because she's not one in that sense and she's not meant to be. But, given that I don't see the logic in putting such a statement in your analysis, because it's just stating the blindingly obvious. I mean, that's like me writing a review for Rin and then including a "purple hairedness" category.

fact is I do like her but when i contrast her with Kohaku (who i'll get to when I get to tsukihime) she gets destroyed in the feel for me department.

What, so Sakura loses out in your mind because she's compassionate and intelligent enough not to lash out at innocent people because she wants to do something, no matter how pointless it might be?

[Cruor]

How about this? PM lantz any complaints, disagreements, anything you think might start a long discussion -- and keep this thread relatively clutter-free so he can continue.

Then there would be no point to this thread. He's pretty much saying 'argue over interpretations of characters'. Which is a valid thread over a literary (lol) work.

I can respect other people's opinion if I see that it actually makes sense and is just a difference of axioms, but Lantz hasn't actually justified any of his statements, so....

What were you arguing about with Creative about anyway?

[eddyak]

Honestly, as long as it was compared to the other routes, HF still felt too compressed to me. It takes a lot to get me interested in a broken bird archetype in the first place since they're not my usual cup of tea, and I feel like Sakura could have used, at the very least, a bit more screen time and foreshadowing in the other routes. Something to hook you in ahead of time, and get you thinking about what could be going on there before you have a chance to find out. There just wasn't enough time for me to invest that much in her character, which is probably why I'm still mostly ambivalent about her.

I thought so too. I mean, she was just that background girl in the other routes. A little foreshadowing, but she didn't stand out at all- and, hell, Rin and Saber both got their fair share of screentime, Sakura's was mostly taken up by her "illness", loads of interludes and sex scenes.

No, he's not. He's very good at setting the situation up and manipulating people, and he's utterly (but believeably) vile as a human being.

I don't think so. Archer's transformation from idealistic, naive, kind boy to cynical, cold machine was believable. Zouken's transformation from magus seeking immortality so nobody has to fight each other any more to guy who enjoys torturing young girls in a basement was not.

[lantzblades]

the result will still be very different from the initial person.

evidence with gil,Saber and shirou in ha indicate otherwise.

He's very good at setting the situation up and manipulating people, and he's utterly (but believeably) vile as a human being.

those are parts of a villain. but the last part is fear. a villain needs to be feared. you have to honestly question the hero's ability to triumph. which with zouken I simply never did.

What, so Sakura loses out in your mind because she's compassionate and intelligent enough not to lash out at innocent people because she wants to do something, no matter how pointless it might be?

read tsukihime mike. as of now you don't understand kohaku.

[RacingeR]

Okay... since it seems like this is halfways to hell already, i think that i'll state my opinion on Sakura here, as doing so in other thread would probably elicit a flame war...

I am really ambivalent about Sakura. I really don't like or dislike her, i am simply neutral towards her character. But i REALLY HATE the way she is handled and how she interacts with other characters.

First, on HF, i really felt like it was trying too hard to make her pitiable, and simply crossed the line, making it hard to relate to her. Yes, i do pity her, but there is a thing that is just moping it in your face, and the whole Sakura situation just failed to get me to really care about her.

Second, a friend of mine once said, via MSN, that he didn't like Sakura because during the route she is pretty much an object, changing hands all the time, until she finally evolves into Dark Sakura. While my own opinion isn't that extreme, I think that many like her Dark version more because of that; she isn't as passive as her normal version. And seriously, she IS Sakura. It is her dark side. Warped and insane, and certainly twisting her thoughts, but still Sakura. As both Saber and Rin had showcases of their flaws in other routes (and Rin had one in HF), that was Sakura, as much as Dark Saber was, well, Saber. Also, she is much more of a threath and a better villiain that Zouken. While his characterization was pretty good, he just couldn't fill Kotomine or Gilgamesh's golden shoes as a main villiain.

Third, wow, you could just change the name from Grail War to Sakura War, and it would reflect pretty accurately the way HF became in the end. Not even Saber had so much focus thrown on her, and not even Fate Shirou becomes so obsessed with the heroine. I seriously felt that the only characters left near the end were Sakura, Kotomine and Illya, and the rest just became satellite characters that were all about her. She is seriously a black hole in the narrative, and i really didn't like it.

In F/HA I only read what was translated up to the 2.1 release, but she has an enormous amount of scenes in there. There isn't ONE scene with Rin, at least until half the game, and Saber has a lot less scenes that her. Sakura appears everywhere, even in other character scenes. Also everyone seems to like her and sing her praises. Lancer inmediately hits on her, which is justifiable, because she is hot, but Caster instantly liking her was a bit too much. It just feels... off and unnatural. /END SPOILERS

Sorry for the long rant, but i wanted to express myself, and i think that stating this in a thread dedicated specifically to opinions was the best way to proceed.

[Mike1984]

evidence with gil,Saber and shirou in ha indicate otherwise.

Erm, what?

Gil overcame the effects of Angra Mainyu by sheer force of ego (and, plus, he was a bit of an asshole in the first place, so he didn't need to change much), Saber was actually pretty different in her dark form (and, in both cases, their situation is different from Sakura's, because she is connected intimately to AM whereas they were dunked in the Grail muck and corrupted that way) and HA Shirou was Avenger, not the blob form of Angra Mainyu, the two are very different in nature (Avenger is not intrinsically evil, whereas AM is, and Avenger is conscious, whereas AM is not).

those are parts of a villain. but the last part is fear. a villain needs to be feared. you have to honestly question the hero's ability to triumph. which with zouken I simply never did.

The thing is, Zouken was never going to be the true final boss, he was always going to be the person controlling the final boss. He did not have to win himself, he needed to make Sakura win on his behalf. Which, barring Shirou's determination and Sakura's mental strength, would have worked.

I don't see how Zouken was any less "unbeatable" than Kotomine in Fate or Gil in UBW. It was just a different kind of unbeatability.