Fate/Grand Order - English

[Guga]

did you ignore the part about NP giving the biggest number?

This is factually wrong tbh, Nps surely deals more damage naturally than face cards, but once you start giving crit buffs (which are way easier to find and give more %) you start seeing a big difference, especially if the Dps is only at NP1~2. Example with 2 merlin

100% Buster + 40% atk + 200% Crit/ on a X/X/B = 114k damage (with crit)
100% Buster + 40% atk/ on a NP1 (with interlude) = 105k

and I don't see any "fishing" when you only need one card with a crit to surpass the NP damage. Nps surely are easier to use, but buster crits aren't something incredibly hard to do, and the reward for it is way bigger

[Aozaki-desu]

Base Kintoki with BHG
even with basic BHG NP will outleverage last card crit
basically for double merlin comp 60% PWR = NPup + PWRup is enough to outleverage 200% crit




this is actually kinda neat how its exactly basic bhg value
really neat
but dw isnt smart enough to have calculated it in advance so its just really funny coincidence
well its kinda obvious that NP card which has double value of normal card scales higher with stats because duh

in essence, we are both wrong
most basic bitch way of doing things with 2 merlins will give more damage at last crit if you have buster to open with and there is no np bonuses going on
with any effort NP will outdamage any single possible crit

p.s. picture is kinda not obvious, look for GREEN FIELDS which are buster crit damage for each card

[Tamamo-no-Mae Goshujin-sama]

as such, Tamamo is indeed inferior to the other, and double tamamo is not always even guaranteed to be peak damage setup, unlike say double merlin or double skadi

I think Tamamo is more like inferior but with potential to be superior. True I don't think she can one shot boss like the other two, even I'm hope to get Meltlilith to have the Skadi Boss killer, however in long term battles I think she can surpass them. From the numbers I've seen here it is only the power a boost gives at the start but if used right Tama can use her boost twice, thank to her NP, and if your attackers skill is a 5 cool down, and you have double Tama, they too can use their skill twice. Aozaki-desu I think you posted this link before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvXM...ture=emb_title . I admit it is not easy, consistence compared to the others is not as high, and I don't know know many tricks to pull it off other then CS, the Atlas Academy Uniform, or luck but I'm just saying she can shine as bright as the other support in the right conditions different ther the others. If she ever gets a Skill upgrade that helps NP growth she could be more consistent at it.

[Guga]

Base Kintoki with BHG
even with basic BHG NP will outleverage last card crit
basically for double merlin comp 60% PWR = NPup + PWRup is enough to outleverage 200% crit




this is actually kinda neat how its exactly basic bhg value
really neat
but dw isnt smart enough to have calculated it in advance so its just really funny coincidence
well its kinda obvious that NP card which has double value of normal card scales higher with stats because duh

in essence, we are both wrong
most basic bitch way of doing things with 2 merlins will give more damage at last crit if you have buster to open with and there is no np bonuses going on
with any effort NP will outdamage any single possible crit

p.s. picture is kinda not obvious, look for GREEN FIELDS which are buster crit damage for each card

I took a sweet time figuring out what was happening on the image XD
And yes, with a BHG an NP definitely can surpass a buster crit with 2 merlins, but the same way you use a BHG I could put a Victor of the Moon and then the last buster crit with a buster starter (BAB or BQB) would do more damage than an NP with a non-MLB BHG. Not to say, buster crit escalates way better with buff stacking than Np does. So I don't see an NP outdamaging "any single possible crit", maybe NP3~5 but 1 definitely not
As an example:

60% np damage + 40% atk + 100% buster/ on a NP1 = 196k
40%atk + 220% crit + 110% buster/ on a B/x/B = 214k (this dmg is only for the last card, not the chain)

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and yes, the thing with bhg value is pretty cool actually

[ttestagr]

you cant disagree with the damage formula, it doesnt have an opinion

it very specifically goes ATK * CARD * POWER and its max is reached when all multipliers are equally balanced
2 * 2 * 2 = 8
1 * 2 * 3 = 6
where POWER is composite of NP-up (for NPs), crit-up (for crits) and power-up (for both)
since NPup is but an element of POWER rather than its own thing, it is, by nature, inferior than ATK and CARD buffs, in general. That and also the fact that it only affects NP instead of (all main color cards) and (all cards)
and in any situation where PowerUp is involved value of NPup is reduced further proportionally to the amount of PowerUp gained

as such, Tamamo is indeed inferior to the other, and double tamamo is not always even guaranteed to be peak damage setup, unlike say double merlin or double skadi

***

unrelated but CG does not reach 180k of halved damage under normal conditions that sounds like a bogus number
neutral sure, but not halved

I am aware of how the damage formula works, which is why I mentioned before that the difference is marginal as long as you can add any amount of attack up. The position you are taking is a nothingburger argument. You are exaggerating the totals when the formula is fractional to that. Its 1.2x1.2x1.2=1.728 compared to 1x1.2x1.3=1.56. Its marginal. And again will become more so as you add easy to find attack up.

Attack up is flat out easier to find than NP damage up. It is flat out easy to add to any team setup. There is no tier of buffs, just how common they are to add to your NP damage formula since NPs are king. The bonuses you get to face cards are insignificant in a properly set up team, much less an arts one that will be using NPs either each turn or every other turn for an extended period of time. Tamamo's high skill uptime meaning her setups will do a high level of work over time since they almost never go away.

Skadi offers 3 turns of damage uptime and then 3 turns with only her NP crit damage buff potentially available. Merlin will offer 3 turns of attack and buster, with 2 and 3 turns of downtime to each buff. Tamamo will offer 3 turns of buffs, 2 turns of downtime, and if you get her NP in that period only a single turn of downtime. Double Tamamo if that is your choice will potentially offer 6 turns straight of her buffs. And her total damage potential over that time is overwhelmingly powerful, and is basically the only easy setup to do 4 or more NPs in a row.

Tamamo's main weakness is a lack of battery, so most of her teams will use kscope removing the ease with which BG can be selected. Having NP damage up on for the majority of cards is absolutely critical considering that fact.

As for Chen Gong, I've seen him used to farm steel, which has the 180k valkyrie at the end to clear. The easiest video to find is with the new buffs in jp, but the equivalent aren't particularly onerous to find for cheaper considering Caster Gilgamesh's total buff output being much higher than Sherlocks even with his latest buff.

Spoiler:

https://youtu.be/_K-bCo6k39c

With just the first round of buffs before the first sacrifice Chen does 60kish damage to each Rider for a total of 184k damage, ramping up until he hits over 500k damage on just his NP to cleanly remove the 180k rider.

[Pendant]

I also saw that video you posted (like before, I mean). Sherlock was mostly included to show off his upgrade he is very replaceable in that CG team.

[ttestagr]

I also saw that video you posted (like before, I mean). Sherlock was mostly included to show off his upgrade he is very replaceable in that CG team.

Indeed. I mean, having a 50% card boost and a 30% NP damage boost is just huge for so much team building. Its one thing to argue about not having a battery on skill, which is a legitimate criticism towards ease of use, compared to sustained NP gain on NP. But there comes a point where a huge damage buff is just too big to bad talk.

[Aozaki-desu]

I am aware of how the damage formula works, which is why I mentioned before that the difference is marginal as long as you can add any amount of attack up. The position you are taking is a nothingburger argument. You are exaggerating the totals when the formula is fractional to that. Its 1.2x1.2x1.2=1.728 compared to 1x1.2x1.3=1.56. Its marginal. And again will become more so as you add easy to find attack up.

Attack up is flat out easier to find than NP damage up. It is flat out easy to add to any team setup. There is no tier of buffs, just how common they are to add to your NP damage formula since NPs are king. The bonuses you get to face cards are insignificant in a properly set up team, much less an arts one that will be using NPs either each turn or every other turn for an extended period of time. Tamamo's high skill uptime meaning her setups will do a high level of work over time since they almost never go away.

Skadi offers 3 turns of damage uptime and then 3 turns with only her NP crit damage buff potentially available. Merlin will offer 3 turns of attack and buster, with 2 and 3 turns of downtime to each buff. Tamamo will offer 3 turns of buffs, 2 turns of downtime, and if you get her NP in that period only a single turn of downtime. Double Tamamo if that is your choice will potentially offer 6 turns straight of her buffs. And her total damage potential over that time is overwhelmingly powerful, and is basically the only easy setup to do 4 or more NPs in a row.

Tamamo's main weakness is a lack of battery, so most of her teams will use kscope removing the ease with which BG can be selected. Having NP damage up on for the majority of cards is absolutely critical considering that fact.

As for Chen Gong, I've seen him used to farm steel, which has the 180k valkyrie at the end to clear. The easiest video to find is with the new buffs in jp, but the equivalent aren't particularly onerous to find for cheaper considering Caster Gilgamesh's total buff output being much higher than Sherlocks even with his latest buff.

Spoiler:

https://youtu.be/_K-bCo6k39c

With just the first round of buffs before the first sacrifice Chen does 60kish damage to each Rider for a total of 184k damage, ramping up until he hits over 500k damage on just his NP to cleanly remove the 180k rider.

you are wrong! here's numbers out the ass to prove it
is literally your argument
i'm going to ignore it

for not farming having two tamamo's sit on their asses for 3 turns so that you can reapply their buffs (if you can cast their nps which is 2cs tier mostly) will kill your damage even better because they need to rotate out for more layers of buff
lets use provided video to prove my point

https://youtu.be/_K-bCo6k39c
With just the first round of buffs before the first sacrifice Chen does 60kish damage to each Rider for a total of 184k damage, ramping up until he hits over 500k damage on just his NP to cleanly remove the 180k rider.

not only this is anecdotal evidence because no one will ever farm like that
its not even a clean kill because minimal damage roll is 5 digits below boss hp value
even with casgil its still below
even with Santa Nightingale which is superior choice because balancing your buffs actually does matter because math is great

I think Tamamo is more like inferior but with potential to be superior. True I don't think she can one shot boss like the other two, even I'm hope to get Meltlilith to have the Skadi Boss killer, however in long term battles I think she can surpass them. From the numbers I've seen here it is only the power a boost gives at the start but if used right Tama can use her boost twice, thank to her NP, and if your attackers skill is a 5 cool down, and you have double Tama, they too can use their skill twice. Aozaki-desu I think you posted this link before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvXM...ture=emb_title . I admit it is not easy, consistence compared to the others is not as high, and I don't know know many tricks to pull it off other then CS, the Atlas Academy Uniform, or luck but I'm just saying she can shine as bright as the other support in the right conditions different ther the others. If she ever gets a Skill upgrade that helps NP growth she could be more consistent at it.

its a meme team
it will never happen in a normal situation
speaking of which

[Deathhappens]

its not actually that much farming if you save story rewards from lb2, its mostly just aurora steel farming

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no they dont
fishing for unga bunga buster crits requires you to roll the crits in your deck on first turn which isnt fun even on bbb servants
and unless you roll bbb (which is UNLIKELY) turn one you will in fact not outdamage an NP
NPs are supreme choice, you only go NPBB if you cant ohko
because fuck card fishing

Nah, she needs Giant Rings for all her skills and I needed to farm an extra one just to Ascend her. Which took 5 runs ALONE.

[pinetree]

Nah, she needs Giant Rings for all her skills

She doesn't though. The only new mat she needs is Aurora Steel.
And Eternal Ice if you count LB1 I guess.

[DreamsRequiem]

Nah, she needs Giant Rings for all her skills and I needed to farm an extra one just to Ascend her. Which took 5 runs ALONE.

She doesn't need Giant Ring for her skills, only for her Ascension. You get 11-13 drops when you do LB2.

She needs 72 Aurora Steel, which is admittedly hard to farm for if you have no patience for it. Luckily I did and got 72 before she went on rate up. Felt very satisfying to get her fully ascended and 10/10/10 the moment I got her.

[Guga]

you are wrong! here's numbers out the ass to prove it
is literally your argument
i'm going to ignore it

Was this for me? If it was, sorry if my argument was not very clear, English is not something that I'm too good at.
what a meant to say was, a servant with a Black Grail does less damage in the NP (if NP1) than a servant with a victor of the moon on the last Buster card of a chain, and so, an NP1 never would "with any effort" surpass the damage of a buster crit, especially taking buff stacking into account.
And I wasn't using "numbers out the ass", I was using this dmg calculator that takes into account the Rng of 0.9~1.1 to the damage formula:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=721915311.
But to make my point more clear i used yours instead.
Example:

lv90 Kintoki NP1 with a lv1 Victor of the Moon

lv90 Sakata Kintoki NP1 with a lv1 Black Grail

[Deathhappens]

She doesn't need Giant Ring for her skills, only for her Ascension. You get 11-13 drops when you do LB2.

She needs 72 Aurora Steel, which is admittedly hard to farm for if you have no patience for it. Luckily I did and got 72 before she went on rate up. Felt very satisfying to get her fully ascended and 10/10/10 the moment I got her.

That was very brave of you

[Aozaki-desu]

And I wasn't using "numbers out the ass", I was using this dmg calculator that takes into account the Rng of 0.9~1.1 to the damage formula:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=721915311.

now that is more clear

an NP1 never would "with any effort" surpass the damage of a buster crit, especially taking buff stacking into account.

but that situation is literally no effort
you are making a judgement based on 60% vs 200% of equivalent buff
on a servant without NP interlude (!)

any further increase in np damage will skew the math in favor of NP
any sort of power up
while any additional crit on top of two hero creations will see diminishing returns

this example is the lowest end of two curves one of which (np) goes much faster than the other (crit)

[Tamamo-no-Mae Goshujin-sama]

I tried to collect Aurora Steel before, my luck only allowed me to at the time set Skadi skills to 8_7_10, but it was also to grow bond points for more quartz, so I had a few more just in case, so I thought it was a win-win at the time.

you are wrong! here's numbers out the ass to prove it
is literally your argument
i'm going to ignore it

for not farming having two tamamo's sit on their asses for 3 turns so that you can reapply their buffs (if you can cast their nps which is 2cs tier mostly) will kill your damage even better because they need to rotate out for more layers of buff
lets use provided video to prove my point

not only this is anecdotal evidence because no one will ever farm like that
its not even a clean kill because minimal damage roll is 5 digits below boss hp value
even with casgil its still below
even with Santa Nightingale which is superior choice because balancing your buffs actually does matter because math is great




its a meme team
it will never happen in a normal situation
speaking of which

Yep your right it is not for normal situations, plus the other two are way easier to use, but I think trying crazy ideas like this is fun. My point was, as a fan of Tamamo, just she can reach a level the other two may not able to, though I admit it takes a crazy plan and time Skadi and Merlin don't need and normally could have won the battle by the time Tama could pull off the trick.
"speaking of which" meant you like trying meme teams and not follow the normal sometime as well right, or did I miss read it? I do enjoy watching your FGO youtube videos.

[SpoonyViking]

I have Skadi, but before I can even think of getting the rarer mats, I need a boatload of blue gems, so Waver stays as my support Caster for now.

[Enchants]

Spoiler:

I...I don't think this was possible but it did. And now i'm scared what might be the cost for such luck.

[Pendant]

oh ffs

[pinetree]

Spoiler:

I...I don't think this was possible but it did. And now i'm scared what might be the cost for such luck.

Bro I hope you survive spending so much of your luck at once.

[Reign]

Jesus Christ, congrats.