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Thread: Does the Einsbern Family never learn from their mistakes ?

  1. #1

    Lightbulb Does the Einsbern Family never learn from their mistakes ?

    Hello there,
    I'm a new member how has just joined this forum just a while ago.
    hope i get along with this wonderful community
    anyway back to the topic that has been in my mind for quite a while now is about the Einsbern Family who has excelled in creating Homunculus.
    According to the setting so far that i have read this is what i can deduce about the einsbern's
    • Einsbern's(Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern),Matou's(Zouken Matou) & Tousaka's(Nagato Tohsaka) came together and decide to create a holy grail so that they can reach the root (a.k.a Akashic Records) of magic.


    • For that Einsbern's sacrificed Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern so that she could become the holy grail system to achieve their long lost magic Heaven's Feel.

    ​After that The Einsbern's lost the next two holy grail wars making the matou's & Tousaka's to look down on them.
    which ultimately lead to their decision of using the special command system present in the holy grail.
    Which consisted of two options namely summoning the Special Class or Summoning The Eighth Servant known as The Ruler.
    Based on their Choices Two alternate realities happened
    Avenger Route

    • Having lost Early in the 3rd grail war avenger processed the omnipotent holy grail system i.e, his soul took control over Justeaze magic circuits and was waiting for the grail to be summoned again so that he could be reborn into the world.
    • After that the Einsberns took in kiritsugu expecting him to participate in the next grail war and creating ideal homunculus iliya since his blood has a specific type of magic that can cut and join the magic circuits together.
    • At the End of the fourth grail war kiritsugu was met with their previous mistake Mainyu and decided to destroy the grail to save billion's of people while getting himself cursed to die.

    Ruler Route

    • They Came Close to winning the holy grail having chosen the Ruler(shirou) as their servant but at the end of the war while Ruler and servant that was summoned by darnic were fighting the nazis stole the holy grail from fuyuki city also having their homanculus arts stolen leaving them exhausted and possibly retiring from the holy grail followed by the other two families.leaving their summoned servant join the church with the help of katomine resei
    • After That followed the event's of Fate /Apocryphia.

    what i wanted to ask why do the Einsbern's make choices that makes people suffer even though they can't achieve their lost Heavens feel magic

  2. #2
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Because they're basically brain dead by this point. If I remember right, the head of the family is just another homunculus himself, and he's just carrying out the orders that were given to him by the last head. Their entire purpose at this point is to achieve the Third, they don't much care how many people have to suffer along the way, and they don't know how to turn off that path.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Because they're basically brain dead by this point. If I remember right, the head of the family is just another homunculus himself, and he's just carrying out the orders that were given to him by the last head. Their entire purpose at this point is to achieve the Third, they don't much care how many people have to suffer along the way, and they don't know how to turn off that path.
    If that were the correct statement then they wouldn't have gave up on the Apocrypia setting and would have pursued to holy grail and participated in the greater grail war.

  4. #4
    Gorgeous~! Happy~! Elegant~! Bobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hate View Post
    If that were the correct statement then they wouldn't have gave up on the Apocrypia setting and would have pursued to holy grail and participated in the greater grail war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Einzbern (Other)
    One of the Three Families that established the Fuyuki Holy Grail War. The family that lies at the center of events in “Fate/stay night” and “Fate/Zero” (Writer: Urobuchi Gen).

    In “Apocrypha”, they didn’t become discouraged by the fact that the Greater Grail was stolen in the Third Holy Grail War… rather, they don’t seem to have that kind of mentality in the first place (if they gave up, it would only be when even their greatest creation, Illyasviel, would fail to attain the Third Sorcery), and they are doing everything they can with the belief that they might be able to reproduce that miracle.

    Accordingly, they have come to reluctantly have relationships with other magi despite their insular and unsociable nature, and the Musik family took advantage of their confused state of affairs in order to receive a portion of their homunculi craft. However, what the Einzberns taught was merely the equivalent of giving a toy to a child, so it wasn’t much of a problem for them.

    The Musik family concealed the fact that they were part of the Yggdmillennia clan, but naturally the Einzberns know about it. However, the Greater Grail was formed by taking apart the only successful Justeaze-model homunculus, so the Einzbern agreed to cooperate with them in case they should manage to activate one.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobin View Post
    One of the Three Families that established the Fuyuki Holy Grail War. The family that lies at the center of events in “Fate/stay night” and “Fate/Zero” (Writer: Urobuchi Gen).

    In “Apocrypha”, they didn’t become discouraged by the fact that the Greater Grail was stolen in the Third Holy Grail War… rather, they don’t seem to have that kind of mentality in the first place (if they gave up, it would only be when even their greatest creation, Illyasviel, would fail to attain the Third Sorcery), and they are doing everything they can with the belief that they might be able to reproduce that miracle.

    Accordingly, they have come to reluctantly have relationships with other magi despite their insular and unsociable nature, and the Musik family took advantage of their confused state of affairs in order to receive a portion of their homunculi craft. However, what the Einzberns taught was merely the equivalent of giving a toy to a child, so it wasn’t much of a problem for them.

    The Musik family concealed the fact that they were part of the Yggdmillennia clan, but naturally the Einzberns know about it. However, the Greater Grail was formed by taking apart the only successful Justeaze-model homunculus, so the Einzbern agreed to cooperate with them in case they should manage to activate one.
    Thanks for explaining

  6. #6
    The Einzbern family is gone at this point.

    What is left is the facility (castle in Germany) which keeps processing Homunculi in order to fulfill the task they were given; getting back the Third.

  7. #7
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six asterism42's Avatar
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    literally a badly built computer
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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six forumghost's Avatar
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    Given how long it's been successfully functioning on it's own I'd say it's an exceptionally built computer actually.

    It's problems seem to be more on the software side of the equation.

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    分かろうとするな、感じれ Mcjon01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Because they're basically brain dead by this point. If I remember right, the head of the family is just another homunculus himself, and he's just carrying out the orders that were given to him by the last head. Their entire purpose at this point is to achieve the Third, they don't much care how many people have to suffer along the way, and they don't know how to turn off that path.
    Acht is the AI that runs the castle that uses an old man shaped golem to interact with people. All the other Einzberns are homunculi. The only humans are a family that lives in a shack on the edge of the property that are there to go shopping for them.

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    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    Given how long it's been successfully functioning on it's own I'd say it's an exceptionally built computer actually.

    It's problems seem to be more on the software side of the equation.
    Considering the Einzbern were built to recreate Justeaze who was a literal accident and shame for the Third's apprentices.
    They were definitely fucked from the beginning
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
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    僕はね、ヒマワリになりたかったんだ mewarmo990's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    They were definitely fucked from the beginning
    like, ultra mega fucked because we found out in F/ZAO that on the off chance that they succeed (with Angra Grail), the World won't even let them. lolol

  12. #12
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Hawkeye's Avatar
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    Well the Einzbern do seem to learn from their mistakes, but its a slow curve. They fail in the first two wars, so in the third they cheat by summoning what they think will be a nuclear option servant. This doesn't work, so they figure this fighting thing isn't their strong suit, so they call in a mercenary, but he betrays them. Fifth war rolls around, they essentially hit the middle ground of all three of these, they summon a monster, it can fight like a BAWS, and is completely under the control of their master. Then crazy shit happens in all three routes to screw up what should have been a dead cert for them.

    That aside, I have to ask, if all the Einzbern at this point are basically just cloned robots of the family, when did they die out? Cause even back in Justeaze time, she was a homunculi as well, wasn't she? And they were already trying to retrieve the Third at that time.
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    分かろうとするな、感じれ Mcjon01's Avatar
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    There was never an Einzbern family, just a bunch of magic grad students who got bored and fucked off and left Siri in charge.

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    The Long-Forgotten Sight Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    僕はね、ヒマワリになりたかったんだ mewarmo990's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    Well the Einzbern do seem to learn from their mistakes, but its a slow curve. They fail in the first two wars, so in the third they cheat by summoning what they think will be a nuclear option servant. This doesn't work, so they figure this fighting thing isn't their strong suit, so they call in a mercenary, but he betrays them. Fifth war rolls around, they essentially hit the middle ground of all three of these, they summon a monster, it can fight like a BAWS, and is completely under the control of their master. Then crazy shit happens in all three routes to screw up what should have been a dead cert for them.
    Fourth war in F/ZAO is literally the Einzbern learning from their mistakes and doing everything they need to do to win, i.e. pairing a high-spec Einzbern Master with Saber.

    And the World detects that they will succeed, so it dropped a Guardian on them.

    So my pet theory is that there was a passive deterrent going on in FSN as well, i.e. "crazy shit"

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    Salt Manju Vacha's Avatar
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    passive deterrent? You know who ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Wait, counter force is a passive deterrence right?
    Kentucky Fried Kirei, nah i'm joking. Nothin here

    well, told ya.


    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
    'kay
    You jest?:3

    Even ▆▆ end up on that place again

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  17. #17
    僕はね、ヒマワリになりたかったんだ mewarmo990's Avatar
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    KnK volume 5:

    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post


    ------Perhaps so.
    You see, the Deterrent is that "restorer of direction" which is both our greatest ally, and our greatest enemy.

    We humans don't want to die. We want to live in peace.

    The planet we live on also doesn't want to die. It wants to live a long life.

    That's what the Deterrent is; it's the collective wish of the entire dominant species -- humanity -- to preserve its own existence. The fundamental instinct of the human self, coalesced and given form. That would be the "Counter Guardian" that we call the Deterrent.

    For example, let's assume an extraordinary person A has conquered the world. Person A may be a just ruler with a benevolent rule. At least within the terms of common human morality.

    But, in the case that Person A's actions are viewed as evil by not an individual but the entire human consciousness -- in other words, an extinction-level threat -- the Deterrent will take effect.

    This is the unconscious desire of all of humankind, Person A included, to preserve its own existence. In order to protect humanity, this self-policing entity will manifest itself without anyone's knowledge and, unobserved, annihilate Person A. As a representative entity born in the swirl of the human subconscious, it acts without conscious will of its own.

    That said, the formless consciousness does not manifest as some curse that kills Person A. The Deterrent usually channels through nearby humans who will act to exterminate Person A. This human medium is only granted just enough power to defeat Person A, so that it cannot become a threat that replaces person A.

    The people that are able to receive the entire will of humanity -- who have the right "channels", so to speak -- are rare. Human history has glorified them as heroes.

    But such titles are no longer used in modern times. Civilization has advanced to the point that humanity could easily destroy itself. If a certain company president funneled all of his corporate assets into expanding logging in the Amazon rainforest, the world would end in a year. See, the world is in trouble everywhere and all the time. And whether we know it or not, the Deterrent is constantly at work; in fact it's pushing a lot of friends out there working to save it all the time. There is one hero per generation. Something like saving the world is no longer enough for someone to be called a Hero.

    Also, in the case that A cannot be stopped by human hands, the Deterrent will manifest itself as a natural phenomenon and destroy A, as well as the entire surrounding area. This was responsible for sinking that continent long ago.

    I make it sound like humanity's guardian, but you should know it has no human emotion. At times, it has prevented things from happening that would have brought happiness to all humankind.

    The problem is, in the end, it's still a representative of humanity. Even if you or I can't recognize it as such, the Deterrent is the ultimate form of our dominance as a species. Time and time again, it has appeared before magi performing their experiments, and slaughtered them all.


    - - - Updated - - -

    sometimes passive.

  18. #18
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    so, since Drake is the one who sinks Atlantis doesnt that mean the continent refered to here is Mu? or Lemuria?

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    Salt Manju Vacha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    sauce
    Well that was pretty much easy to understand. So much for CG and CF confusion. Alaya pretty much another name for Counter Force lel.
    Kentucky Fried Kirei, nah i'm joking. Nothin here

    well, told ya.


    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
    'kay
    You jest?:3

    Even ▆▆ end up on that place again

    The special hell on hill full of swords ---------------------------------------------------------The hill of bloody battlefield

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    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madarra View Post
    so, since Drake is the one who sinks Atlantis doesnt that mean the continent refered to here is Mu? or Lemuria?
    She didn't sink Atlantis. She wasn't even around then.
    Brosiden just came up one day to stir some shit.
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
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