Girls' Frontline

[Aozaki-desu]

So, 80 roll is a soft guarantee, 160 rolls is hard guarantee? I saw a picture of total obtainable f2p rolls for 1st year which was about ~1500 targeted and ~500 standard rolls, does not seem that bad of a gacha to me. Not great though but does not seem overly offensive.

[Deathhappens]

So, 80 roll is a soft guarantee, 160 rolls is hard guarantee? I saw a picture of total obtainable f2p rolls for 1st year which was about ~1500 targeted and ~500 standard rolls, does not seem that bad of a gacha to me. Not great though but does not seem overly offensive.

That wholly depends on what the monthly gacha currency income looks like, as well as how important they make rolling the weapon gacha (which works with the same rules and has equally shitty odds). Ulrid for example needs her signature gold sword to be even semi-decent since there's no gold sword in the general pull and they have yet to introduce another gold sword (or another melee character in general) since she came out.

[Formless Creature]

My opinion on GFL2 was firmly neutral. I haven't played it yet, and what I did know about it wasn't offensive to me at first. I did play the original GFL1 to some extent.

Then my friend started sending me the GFL2 redesigns for all the original t-dolls, and I'll just let the Discord logs speak for themselves. I'm this random anime girl that I found online somewhere, and cyan is my friend.

Prologue

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Stechkin

An audio file I actually sent

Needless to say, I am SEETHING WITH RAGE

[TetsuoS2]

hmm

[Aozaki-desu]

5 chapters in
Mayling is seriously fucked up
she makes me uncomfortably concerned

at first i was like
"haha, shikikcunt's alcoholic underaged onahole"
not anymore

[Deathhappens]

I would be more concerned if that was my first thought honestly

BTW in case you (or anyone else) hasn't checked it out yet, you can find a lot of stories about ex-Griffin dolls and current characters in the Dusty Journal/Dusty Memories section of the Elmo Server Room which cover a lot of ground over the ten years between the Shikikunt leaving G&K and now. That include Meiling's backstory (or maybe that's under Character Profiles, come to thunk of it).

- - - Updated - - -

My opinion on GFL2 was firmly neutral. I haven't played it yet, and what I did know about it wasn't offensive to me at first. I did play the original GFL1 to some extent.

Then my friend started sending me the GFL2 redesigns for all the original t-dolls, and I'll just let the Discord logs speak for themselves. I'm this random anime girl that I found online somewhere, and cyan is my friend.

Prologue

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Stechkin

An audio file I actually sent

Needless to say, I am SEETHING WITH RAGE

Honestly, other than the names which universally range from "cringe but I get it" to "HOW THE FUCK CAN A HUMAN MIND ACTUALLY CONTEMPLATE THIS", the designs are mostly not that bad, keeping in mind that a) 2d will always be superior to 3d (I KNOW WHAT I SAID) simply because you only care about a single still frame rather than a full 360 range and b) they had to pack about a dozen different artists' work under a single unifying artstyle. (also 416 at least came out unilaterally better in that she doesn't look like a blow-up doll anymore)

[Formless Creature]

Honestly, it's the obsession with "aesthetic cohesion" that mostly bothers me about 3D gacha. It's not a sin exclusive to GFL by any means. I feel like part of the reason why I like the designs of the old 2D "just hire 500 guest artists" era is because the designs were so varied. There was always guaranteed to be at least one character you'd find really appealing. Nowadays sadly it feels like it's only F/GO that adheres to that philosophy, and with modern games, if you don't like one character, chances are you dislike all of them.

Case in point; I really liked 416's cute aesthetic beforehand, but now she has big boobs and a much more "mature" look, which I'm not a big fan of.

[Rinko]

After all these years, finally someone who understands that 2D's variety is a strength, and something 3D simply cannot replicate.

[Formless Creature]

I feel like this could be easily resolved by going the Atlus route and just giving the characters 2D sprites when in dialogue but 3D models for gameplay purposes. All the spatial freedom of 3D gaming with all the expressiveness of 2D art. But Heaven Burns Red is the only game I've played so far that's figured that one out.

[Rinko]

Very true. I di think this should expand to stuff like My Room style casual conversations though. They generally don't have a need for big animations, and 3D models just don't tend to be good for expressions.

[Deathhappens]

Honestly, it's the obsession with "aesthetic cohesion" that mostly bothers me about 3D gacha. It's not a sin exclusive to GFL by any means. I feel like part of the reason why I like the designs of the old 2D "just hire 500 guest artists" era is because the designs were so varied. There was always guaranteed to be at least one character you'd find really appealing. Nowadays sadly it feels like it's only F/GO that adheres to that philosophy, and with modern games, if you don't like one character, chances are you dislike all of them.

Case in point; I really liked 416's cute aesthetic beforehand, but now she has big boobs and a much more "mature" look, which I'm not a big fan of.

You can't really do "different artstyles" in 3D. It's all being rendered by the sane engine.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like this could be easily resolved by going the Atlus route and just giving the characters 2D sprites when in dialogue but 3D models for gameplay purposes. All the spatial freedom of 3D gaming with all the expressiveness of 2D art. But Heaven Burns Red is the only game I've played so far that's figured that one out.

Heaven Burns Red is on a whole other level when it comes to anything but the actual gameplay, honestly. The production quality is so good making it a gacha was probably the only way they could fund it, lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah on to actual GFL news: WA2k is next and I weep for my wallet as I spent every last smidgen of currency trying for the Rectrix.
I might legitimately have to buy rolls, what a year.

[Formless Creature]

You can't really do "different artstyles" in 3D. It's all being rendered by the sane engine.

That's not what I meant. Just look at Genshin: every character has the same basic design philosophy, not artstyle-wise but in terms of clothing and appearance. The characters are color-coded per element about 90% of the time, they have intricate and elaborate patterns all over their clothes, they have dangly bits all over them that often have zero explanation just because the developers want something that will look cool when they run around, etc. This is different from something like F/GO where even if you were to strip away artstyle differences, no two characters would look like they even belong in the same game.

Also, not to belabor the point, but technically you can. It would take a tremendous amount of effort, too much for any company like miHoYo I geuss, but artstyle isn't determined just by coloring and inking methods, but also how you draw the characters themselves; proportions, expressiveness, facial structure, etc. GFL2's character models don't look similar to that of other games'. And you can see this in something like F/GO Arcade. They took care to make sure each Servant's 3D model reflected their base art, resulting in things like BB having Wada Arco's characteristic weird bug eyes (which unfortunately in 3D do look somewhat disturbing)

The issue with most gacha games is that they have to produce two or three new characters roughly every month, so post-Genshin a lot of 3D games have chosen to cheat by creating templates for certain bodytypes and abusing those templates to make things like animation work easier. Genshin, for example, will never ever have a proper loli character because during early development they arbitrarily decided their loli bodytype would be this horrifying FFXIV Lalafell-looking ass Mr. Potatohead thing.

Also about HBR: the game looks like it could run on a PSVita. Visually speaking, it's not all that. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, though. Their insistence on voicing almost every single line of dialogue though has probably inflated the budget to funny proportions. That said I'm still not past Chapter 2 yet so maybe there's some legendary cutscene that I haven't seen.

[Aozaki-desu]

That's not what I meant. Just look at Genshin: every character has the same basic design philosophy, not artstyle-wise but in terms of clothing and appearance. The characters are color-coded per element about 90% of the time, they have intricate and elaborate patterns all over their clothes, they have dangly bits all over them that often have zero explanation just because the developers want something that will look cool when they run around, etc. This is different from something like F/GO where even if you were to strip away artstyle differences, no two characters would look like they even belong in the same game.

Thats just mihoyo designs being shit. Well, they are not crap per se, but they are slop. Which is why i have never picked up any of their games - the reek of slop was too strong.

Also, not to belabor the point, but technically you can. It would take a tremendous amount of effort, too much for any company like miHoYo I geuss, but artstyle isn't determined just by coloring and inking methods, but also how you draw the characters themselves; proportions, expressiveness, facial structure, etc. GFL2's character models don't look similar to that of other games'. And you can see this in something like F/GO Arcade. They took care to make sure each Servant's 3D model reflected their base art, resulting in things like BB having Wada Arco's characteristic weird bug eyes (which unfortunately in 3D do look somewhat disturbing)

Mihoyo are making 4 games concurrently, arent they like 2000 people studio by now? They have all the resources in the world. Slop issue.

The issue with most gacha games is that they have to produce two or three new characters roughly every month, so post-Genshin a lot of 3D games have chosen to cheat by creating templates for certain bodytypes and abusing those templates to make things like animation work easier. Genshin, for example, will never ever have a proper loli character because during early development they arbitrarily decided their loli bodytype would be this horrifying FFXIV Lalafell-looking ass Mr. Potatohead thing.

Skill issue again! Obviously, each character having unique model is ideal, but even without that, as long as base model variety is decent and you can tweak each one to differ just enough to maintain an illusion of unique body type - that is sufficient. There will be company out there that will figure it out, capitalize on it and rake in mad money eventually.

And 2-3 characters per month is less sustainable if your workflow is 3d rather than a few pngs per character, that is true. Which means, aside from smart model work early on, game companies need to make ACTUAL games instead of relying on endless flow of new character content. There will be a company which will figure out making gacha that builds tall and not just wide, in civ terms, eventually.

[Formless Creature]

Mihoyo are making 4 games concurrently, arent they like 2000 people studio by now? They have all the resources in the world. Slop issue.

Their issue is time and not money. They have to have an update out every six weeks, and their fanbase has a very high standard of presentation quality (e.g. the models and animations can't look half-assed compared to the standard that's already been set). Having 100 people work on one character is not how anything works.

Skill issue again! Obviously, each character having unique model is ideal, but even without that, as long as base model variety is decent and you can tweak each one to differ just enough to maintain an illusion of unique body type - that is sufficient. There will be company out there that will figure it out, capitalize on it and rake in mad money eventually.

ZZZ does this already. They can't go back and change it for Genshin or HSR though.

And 2-3 characters per month is less sustainable if your workflow is 3d rather than a few pngs per character, that is true. Which means, aside from smart model work early on, game companies need to make ACTUAL games instead of relying on endless flow of new character content. There will be a company which will figure out making gacha that builds tall and not just wide, in civ terms, eventually.

Good gameplay only ensures player loyalty. It doesn't ensure money. New characters are what rakes in the dosh.

Also, the psychological profile of gacha game players is that they are fundamentally impatient and always thirsting for stuff to do. Realistically the only two ways you can satisfy a playerbase like that is through something like a roguelike (so, so many games have tried and it's never been perfect; you just can't properly integrate a roguelike with gacha mechanics), PvP (cancer), or through sandbox mechanics/modding (obviously impossible)

[Aozaki-desu]

Their issue is time and not money. They have to have an update out every six weeks, and their fanbase has a very high standard of presentation quality (e.g. the models and animations can't look half-assed compared to the standard that's already been set). Having 100 people work on one character is not how anything works.

The pipeline has already been defined, if they know what they are to do (e.g. creative work has been done), they just make several teams and each team works on their character concurrently. True that they maybe don't have enough people that are actually skilled enough to ensure QC metric is met, is what i would say if they ran one game and not four. They should be able to train staff at this point, obviously. The only real issues here if creatives arent far along (skill issue) or if new tech must be introduces into development pipeline (kinda real problem, but you just have to deal with it, realistically)

ZZZ does this already. They can't go back and change it for Genshin or HSR though.

Thats on them, ultimately

Good gameplay only ensures player loyalty. It doesn't ensure money.

if one thinks like that while making videogames, they are in the wrong fucking business. Moreover, at this point its just pure corpotalk. Making a game that is excellent by objective metrics of the excellent game, even in gacha (i don't subscribe to the notion that gacha can't be good. I firmly believe you can have a game that is excellent on its own while having freemium type of monetization) indeed does not mean the most money made. Which is why a game developer cannot think this way fundamentally. You just have to believe your game is good and give it your all and let playerbase.

Also, the psychological profile of gacha game players is that they are fundamentally impatient and always thirsting for stuff to do.

You can add stuff for players to do with the characters they already have.

***
Roguelike gacha is not something i ever thought about, but there is bound to be a cool one eventually. The concept is too good.

[Formless Creature]

If your objective is just to make a good game then you would not be making a gacha game. If that's your monetization model you've already lost. There is valuable artistic value in a monetization model like gacha for the record, in the sense that it can allow for a long-running storyline. But plenty of gacha games have good storylines already, so that's been achieved.

Also there are roguelike gacha games. Limbus Company, ZZZ and HSR, and Arknights all have roguelike gamemodes. Limbus's roguelike gamemode is fun but requires far, far too much account investment to reach its final form. ZZZ and HSR are super hit or miss. Arknights is, from what I've heard, extremely good, but it also doesn't use the characters you've spent money on.

[pinetree]

Arknights is, from what I've heard, extremely good, but it also doesn't use the characters you've spent money on.

It does, there are some free characters to use but your own are always going to be severely stronger.
I don't think any gacha game would have the guts to release a mode where your rolls are irrelevant.

And the roguelike mode in Arknights is actually amazing, with a few tweaks it could easily be a game by itself.

[Formless Creature]

Oh okay, I'll have to apologize then because I stopped playing AK before it was implemented and I heard that was the case. Maybe I was confusing it with something else.

[Aozaki-desu]

Finished available story segments, finally. Probably a lot slower than i could because i switched to story squad midway through because it felt appropriate.
There is a lot of yap, but its mostly good yap. I could do with fewer Ca-ro-li-que (its so cute how they pronounce it in yapanese but i also die a little inside whenever i hear it) / Nemesis convos. Commander's lines feel contrived a little bit, not naturally flowing. Not sure if just gacha mc writing. I wish it was a bit better. Would be interesting to rewatch some story segments on youtube to see how male MC sounds, i imagine dynamic would be kinda different. Probably not in favor of male MC, unless he has different lines, which i doubt.

[Deathhappens]

Despite the fact that WA2k is already announced I went all the way to 60 rolls in the weapon banner because sunk cost fallacy is a bitch, only to lose the 50/50 to the Mezzaluna... and I don't even own SPAS-12/Sabrina yet.

I guess Ulrid will be stuck with her purple sword forever idfc