Badass Versus Thread

[SpoonyViking]

And futher getting on my point. If they have included relatively minor kings like Eric Bloodaxe I don't see why Le Loi wouldn't at least have a better shot as a Servant

Bloodaxe and Gunnhild are actually some of the most famous Norse rulers and were the subject of a fair number of sagas, poems and tales (even more than rulers with a higher historical impact, like Harald Fairhair and Canute the Great).

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Not developed circuits. And his super reinforcement is just to punch bullets.

I see, I see. Bajiquan stronk!

[Iceblade44]

It isn't the same, because he actually didn't achieve what any of them did.

Tell me what did Ceasar achieve? Create an empire? Nope that was his adopted son. What did Attila achieve? Destroy the Roman Empire? Nope that was another dude. What did Charlemagne do? Create a new Roman Empire? Kinda, he did so for awhile but it collapsed a few decades after his death. You see my point. I don't understand why people believe they should make a distinction between commanders like this, as if the others are so much superior. There not, what they achieved are genius yes, but there's not like a sort of Ranking system, the only ones I can agree being on a different level is just Genghis and Alexander. That's it, the only reason we have natural inclination to give these guys more credit is just because they are more well known. I mean if your making argument that Nobunaga isn't special because he couldn't do anything worthwhile, then let's bring are minds to Hannibal, brilliant strategist and general, something that is acknowledged by everyone. Now what did he actually do in terms of conquering? Absolutely nothing. His campaigns failed, he never once attacked the city of Rome, only pillaged the lands surrounding it. What he wished to do from crossing those alps he could never do, everything he did was wasted. His city was razed and people massacred in a half century after his defeat. Now why do we remember him? It's simple, it was because his enemy was motherfucking Rome, where most of the Western World can trace their origins back to. That's it.

I compared him to them because they were all given abilities based on their roles in the movement of history. Tesla all but invented the concept of electricity, which spread over the planet, and became a ridiculously strong hero with lightning based abilities based on that. Nobunaga introduces the rifle- doesn't even invent, but just buys the bloody things and spreads them around- to a single country, and somehow gets the ability to summon thousands of the things. Edison did basically the same thing, popularising and spreading inventions, but on a far bigger scale, and still didn't manage to become a Heroic Spirit off his own legend, he had to fuse with all the presidents to come close.

But again why are you trying to compare them? Nobunaga isn't an innovator, he didn't contribute nothing to the world, so I don't know why you think his abilities have anything to do with the movement of History? Nobunaga has guns isn't because he invented them, he used them. He used 3000 guns to utterly destroy what was at the time one of the most strongest military forces in all Japan. I mean it's like arguing that Iskandar shouldn't have his army because he didn't create any of them or used them in any other way than killing people. Nobunaga doesn't have guns because he used them to progress history, he has them because it's his army, it is the expression of the military force once wielded by Oda Nobunaga. That's it.

He shouldn't be a conqueror anywhere near the scale or power of the likes of Caesar, Isk, Khan, Attila and so on, because they got to be so ridiculously powerful by conquering massive chunks of the world. This guy didn't even manage to take his own country.

Who conquered massive chunks the world? Ceasar just conquerered Gaul, Atilla made his life on raiding the two Roman Empires and made himself a nice little kingdom above the two in central Europe but that's it. Again inly big conquerors are Alexander and Genghis Khan, they carved out the world. Japan is small yes, but having more land doesn't mean he's any less of genius. What he was up against in nearly uniting Japan, was dozens of expierenced warlords and there clans which having been fighting for a century. And he nearly did it, if he wasn't betrayed.

I think what we've been talking about is actually her fame boost. Vlad gets far weaker stakes outside of Romania, or even loses the ability to use them, and loses a bunch of his stats as well. On his home ground he can fight freaking Karna to a draw, but outside it he's nowhere near that tier. I'd say outside of Japan Nobu's just a dude who can summon a couple muskets and maybe has a good level in military tactics.

That has to do with Vlad's unique circumstances, that he is only revered as a Hero in Romania, everywhere else has the conception of him being the monster Dracula. This was explained using Karna as an example also. In the Hanging Gardens he also lost benefits of any fameboost but he wasn't that effected by it because he's still the hero Karna, while Vlad was so effected by it because "the hero Vlad III can not exist anywhere outside of Romania" as he was the hero Vlad and not in Romania, that made him lose more power then what was normal.

Nobunaga on the other hand doesn't have a conflicting image between outside Japan and in it. Hell the Japanese were the ones in the first place that demonized the dude, which everyone else also did as example. She is certainly weaker outside of the land yeah, but not by much.

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Bloodaxe and Gunnhild are actually some of the most famous Norse rulers and were the subject of a fair number of sagas, poems and tales (even more than rulers with a higher historical impact, like Harald Fairhair and Canute the Great).!

Yeah i agree with that. From what I researched about Eric was more about myths of the guy then what he actually did. Which was be king for some years, get deposed, be king again. Get despise, follow pattern. If I remember in the game, when saying his source they don't say historical fact like it does with real Servants but an epic called Fagrskinna. I find that interesting, it's a pity that the internet is scarce on information relating to that.

[Iceblade44]

I expect to see her using Kalaripayattu sometimes but still no sign.

You got things backward. Nobunaga is one of the most popular figure you see popping up in JP media, heck even Pokemon has him in a spinoff with a freaking Shiny Rayquaza, that he is too OP MC had to rely on Arceus to help. Meanwhile monsters like Tamamo and the other 2 are barely touched on due to superstitions, especially Sutoku being feared the most due to his curse. Out of the 3 great yokai Shuten gets the most exploration in anime, manga and games. Fate is the only franchise where you actually see Tamamo being a big deal. And I barely would call wank tbh, because she still not live up to the actual legend as well as the power of the nine tailed fox in legend. Heck in the original legend she does all of the shit with just 2 tails, until they associated that fox with the nine tailed fox concept.

Nobu wank is really distasteful because it focuses too much on the whole thing regarding him "destroying" Buddhism and Shinto, which is now proven wrong by historical accounts. Nobunaga did not intend to wipe religions out, he actually tried to put them under an organized system, which is crucial to his unification plan since during that time Buddhism sects and monks have sayings in even political matters which completely goes against the basis of Buddhism in the first place. His "destruction" were exaggerated by the anti-Nobunaga factions, as part of propaganda, and TM fall for it. If only they got the nature of his destruction right, you will not only get abit of the whole anti-mystery stuff but also the power against rulers and religious figures of all religions. That way Nobu would be actually more OP than current, but base on a much logical and accurate ground.

Not just that but because people tend to use "advantage modifiers" arguments to decide a versus, which Nobu has a bunch of, it always drives the argument towards "advantage = win" which is the most shallow argument ever. You have bonus modifiers but if you can't land a hit on the target, or the target is too durable, it's everyone's game. It's not as simple as comparing damage output, bonus modifiers and call it a day. Even worse, Nobu's modifiers are extremely vague in scaling and people tend to take the whole "extreme/absolute advantage" line in the mod description as face value for their Nobu wank, which usually just end in agree to disagree.

I see, if looking at Japan he certainly has alot of popularity, which makes sense. And I didn't consider how the wank looks like on a more broader perspective. I know that Nobunaga's actions were pragmatic and a logical choice because those monks weren't friendly, they were downright scary. I have to disagree that TM got it wrong however. It should be noted that many of the things Nobu has as a Servant isn't because what she did, but what people thought about her after death. Both her skill Demon King and her Noble Phantasm Demon King of the Sixth Heaven both stated to have come from the perceptions, both fearful and in awe that people had to Nobunaga after death, it doesn't have to do with what she actually did or think of, but how people remember her by, which as you mentioned was largely influenced by propaganda. So I don't think TM got it wrong, tho it be nice if people would focus more on Nobu getting more power against guardians of establishment then juat Divinity, because that's more in line on what Tenka Fubu originally meant.

Also on an endnote. For tama's case Its not that I have a problem with what she actually does then it's with the implications of what they have with her. Tamamo is Amatersu, oh that's neat. Amatersu is a powerful goddess, oh that makes sense she is Japan's chief goddess. Amatersu is one of the most powerful things ever. Eh...(note I know I'm exxagerating but this is just to get to my point)

I mean I can understand the reasoning, but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I think it has more to do that to me is not really to with how her power is represented then it makes me think of Amaterasu as a more singular all powerful diety, instead of being a part of a group of them. I mean what about the other fun Japanese Gods like Susanoo or Tsukuyomi her siblings or the rest of other cool gods for that matter. It doesn't really only apply to Japanese Gods but other Gods also, I don't know it just make them seem less impressive. And I don't like that. That's just my personal thoughts on it anyway.

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If it's Ivan from Anastasia Lost Belt then Nobu would lose comfortably.

I agree mostly with this.

Nobu cannot take on Karna/Gilgamesh despite having advantage in term of affinity over both. Hell Karna even has both Riding and high Mystery. Ivan's power is simply well beyond Nobu's level.
.

I think I have found the quote talking about Gil vs Nobu, but haven't found a reference for Karna. Also have to see if I can confirm the tidbit I have about Gil vs Nobu because it says it has to do with that Gil has weapons not based on Mystery or something like, so I have to figure out if that was actually stated some where or it was just a guys assumption.

[Lily Emilio]

I have to disagree that TM got it wrong however. It should be noted that many of the things Nobu has as a Servant isn't because what she did, but what people thought about her after death. Both her skill Demon King and her Noble Phantasm Demon King of the Sixth Heaven both stated to have come from the perceptions, both fearful and in awe that people had to Nobunaga after death, it doesn't have to do with what she actually did or think of, but how people remember her by, which as you mentioned was largely influenced by propaganda. So I don't think TM got it wrong, tho it be nice if people would focus more on Nobu getting more power against guardians of establishment then juat Divinity, because that's more in line on what Tanks Fubu originally meant.

I never said Typemoon got it wrong. I said Typemoon focused on it for the wrong reason. What I actually want is a similar case like Salieri, enough focus on the heavy misconceptions of history and fiction, enough focus on actual feats. I don't want wank that overshadow the character's actual feats. And to be honest, the wank is not even that good either, it's just damage mod and a RM that harms BOTH her and her enemies, something that a tactical thinking Nobunaga never would do. Basically it's so uncreative that now whenever I look at Salieri, I feel bad for Nobu.

Also on an endnote. For tama's case I'm not that I have a problem with what she actually does then it's with the implications of what they have with her. Tamamo is Amatersu, oh that's neat. Amatersu is a powerful goddess, oh that makes sense she is Japan's chief goddess. Amatersu is one of the most powerful things ever. Eh...(note I know I'm exxagerating but this is just to get to my point)

Amamterasu the sun goddess alone might not be impressive since you have a bunch of other sun gods out there, but she is the PRIMORDIAL BUDDHA in their Buddhism, she is the equivalent of the One True God in their Buddhism. It's more about you being very unfamiliar with their Buddhism than anything. I knew because one of my friends also had similar "wait wut why" moment because in his 25 years of life he only knew about God and Satan.

I think it has more to do that to me is not really to with how her power is represented then it makes me think of Amaterasu as a more singular all powerful diety, instead of being a part of a group of them.

But that's the plan, that's the point of Izanagi and Izanami giving birth to Amaterasu as stated in the Nihon Shoki, where Nasu took his version from. They only gave birth to Amaterasu until after ALL other type of gods are created, and gave her their absolute power, so that she is the "lord of all". It's basically her thing, to stand out beyond others. The problem you have is mostly due to only known about the common version of the legend being told by sources outside Japan, which usually tend to focus on the whole Izanagi purification thing.

I mean what about the other fun Japanese Gods like Susanoo or Tsukuyomi her siblings or the rest of other cool gods for that matter.

Oh you mean the guy who is identified with Indra and even has some powers similar to Poseidon in addition to his strength and feats that makes him like Japan's Thor? Or the guy who is the SOUL of the light of heaven and earth, the one who is protrait as a shadow holding fucking galaxy in SMT series, the one who was said in Nihon Shoki to be the support counterpart to the lord of all Amaterasu? If so, are you prepared for the wank?

It doesn't really only apply to Japanese Gods but other Gods also, I don't know just make them seem less impressive. And I don't like that. That's just my personal thoughts on it anyway.

It's the problem in fiction in general when you try to insert gods of all religions into 1 universe. You need to make some look impressive and some not so much. Marvel and DC comics also have this problem, gotta chill with it. The one universe who is doing pretty decent with this is Highschool DxD, despite some of the most overblown Beast 666 wank.

[castor212]

oppai gami is the most wanked of them all

[GundamFSN]

I pray that Japanese Deity are forever at peace and to never have a quarrel ever again.

We've almost had Apocalypse just because of Susanoo and Amaterasu quarreling lol.

#JustJapaneseDeityThing

[Iceblade44]

I'm not talking about original myth, but TMs represention of it. I don't care if Amaterasu is the Strongest God, she's basically the motherfucking king of the universe for japan, everyone better look up to her. What I meant by all powerful deity was how TM seems to have her. Like take for example the Sefar vs Gods, where there is anarch-enemy of all Gods but Amaterasu is equal to it. Now I know the reasoning of this has to do with conceptual effects and those make sense to me, how the sun isn't tied down to the earth. But what about the other Sun Gods, because Amaterasu is certainly isn't the only one. With this information and that when she mentioned that the sun also fell to Sefar, infuriates me. Because she's not including herself as that sun, but another one, probably the original Apollo, but he gets no special mention of having any type effect on Sefar despite having the same Authority as her. It just makes me think that Amaterasu is an exception above everyone else, even among those who are the same as her. Now if one day if TM decide to reveal some information on someone like Ra and also have him on the level of Amaterasu in terms of facing Sefar, then I can get a little calmer and let it go, but we haven't had anything of that. So I'm remaining being peeved.

As for Susanoo and Tsukuyomi. Yeah they sound very cool and I have no problem with them being badasses. But my point is where is that in Fate?

And last finishing on Nobu. I can underatand your wishes, tho personally I'm fine with TM Nobu. For one thing in terms of tactical abilities she already has it, her guns so I'm fine with that. I wish there wasn't so much of a focus on the Anti-Divinity/Mystery as well tho I disagree they should have taken it in towards Saleri's direction. Saleri's abilities comes from propaganda that he had no hand in. Nobu stuff comes from propangana but he still did those things, he was still ruthless. He just wasn't to the extent of what stories want you to believe. And I also am fine with her RM, because again it's not really an expression of what Nobunaga did then what people think she did, and I totally see him totally using his reputation as a Demon King for advantage. I think the problem is with the RM is that we haven't actually seen what effect it has for a truly Divine opponent, other than fluff text we actually haven't seen what a fight with Servant's with Divinity actually looks like in there and how much it weakens them.

[Tobias]

Japanese man who obsesses over myths likes Japanese myths.

news at 11

[Lily Emilio]

I'm not talking about original myth, but TMs represention of it. I don't care if Amaterasu is the Strongest God, she's basically the motherfucking king of the universe for japan, everyone better look up to her. What I meant by all powerful deity was how TM seems to have her. Like take for example the Sefar vs Gods, where there is anarch-enemy of all Gods but Amaterasu is equal to it. Now I know the reasoning of this has to do with conceptual effects and those make sense to me, how the sun isn't tied down to the earth. But what about the other Sun Gods, because Amaterasu is certainly isn't the only one. With this information and that when she mentioned that the sun also fell to Sefar, infuriates me. Because she's not including herself as that sun, but another one, probably the original Apollo, but he gets no special mention of having any type effect on Sefar despite having the same Authority as her. It just makes me think that Amaterasu is an exception above everyone else, even among those who are the same as her. Now if one day if TM decide to reveal some information on someone like Ra and also have him on the level of Amaterasu in terms of facing Sefar, then I can get a little calmer and let it go, but we haven't had anything of that. So I'm remaining being peeved.

Before I say anything, let me ask you a question. Would you be fine if it's the exact same thing but instead of Amaterasu it's Ra or any other sun gods being the only one on Sefar lvl?

As for Susanoo and Tsukuyomi. Yeah they sound very cool and I have no problem with them being badasses. But my point is where is that in Fate?

We already caught a glimpse of SusanoO power via Raikou, and Tamamo did confirmed Tsukuyomi is not genderbent into some kawaii imouto. Furthermore Tsukuyomi and SusanoO ar sometimes considered as the same being who quarrel with Amaterasu, so TM can even merge them into one and then you will feel the wank but by that point it's gonna be too late.

And last finishing on Nobu. I can underatand your wishes, tho personally I'm fine with TM Nobu. For one thing in terms of tactical abilities she already has it, her guns so I'm fine with that. I wish there wasn't so much of a focus on the Anti-Divinity/Mystery as well tho I disagree they should have taken it in towards Saleri's direction. Saleri's abilities comes from propaganda that he had no hand in. Nobu stuff comes from propangana but he still did those things, he was still ruthless. He just wasn't to the extent of what stories want you to believe. And I also am fine with her RM, because again it's not really an expression of what Nobunaga did then what people think she did, and I totally see him totally using his reputation as a Demon King for advantage. I think the problem is with the RM is that we haven't actually seen what effect it has for a truly Divine opponent, other than fluff text we actually haven't seen what a fight with Servant's with Divinity actually looks like in there and how much it weakens them.

Agree to disagree. For me, TM Nobu is always a gag (which is basically the point of Koha-Ace) and a misopportunity while the introduction of her to FGO made it worse. I still love her character tho.

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Japanese man who obsesses over myths likes Japanese myths.

news at 11

It would be strange if a Japanese author not trying to wank their deities. I mean, even SMT4 has freaking Masakado on some ridiculous tier.

[Iceblade44]

Before I say anything, let me ask you a question. Would you be fine if it's the exact same thing but instead of Amaterasu it's Ra or any other sun gods being the only one on Sefar lvl?

Honestly I don't know. I want to say I'd react the same but I know I have my bias, so I can see myself initially dismiss it if it's a god I'm fond of, like Helios. Personally, I like the idea that sun gods have certain leniacies, and that the sun is inherently special. Before I read CCC I had this bias on Karna because I had learn that he got to the farside unlike any other Servants so it bothered me why he was special. When I actually got down to reading it and seeing that the same also applied to Gawain and it was because it was there connection to the Sun felt cool to me, I liked that. Now in Extella I have two different informations that A) Sun Gods can equal Seder and B) they still lost with no fan-fare. Initially I thought that Amaterasu was also included in the sun grouping, but then in a previous conversation here it was said that Tamamowasn't talking about herself didn't seem right to me. Because it's implying a difference between Amaterasu and other Sun gods even though i can guess it wasn't the intention. Thats just what it makes me feel anyhow.

We already caught a glimpse of SusanoO power via Raikou, and Tamamo did confirmed Tsukuyomi is not genderbent into some kawaii imouto. Furthermore Tsukuyomi and SusanoO ar sometimes considered as the same being who quarrel with Amaterasu, so TM can even merge them into one and then you will feel the wank but by that point it's gonna be too late.

Whenever TM decides to make them into actual characters will be sweet. What I like the Amaterasu/Susanoo and Tsukuyomi dynamic is that none of them get along with each other. And me seeing Tamamo in Amaterasu's place and interacting with them I'm sure would be funny.

[Lily Emilio]

Honestly I don't know. I want to say I'd react the same but I know I have my bias, so I can see myself initially dismiss it if it's a god I'm fond of, like Helios. Personally, I like the idea that sun gods have certain leniacies, and that the sun is inherently special. Before I read CCC I had this bias on Karna because I had learn that he got to the farside unlike any other Servants so it bothered me why he was special. When I actually got down to reading it and seeing that the same also applied to Gawain and it was because it was there connection to the Sun felt cool to me, I liked that. Now in Extella I have two different informations that A) Sun Gods can equal Seder and B) they still lost with no fan-fare. Initially I thought that Amaterasu was also included in the sun grouping, but then in a previous conversation here it was said that Tamamowasn't talking about herself didn't seem right to me. Because it's implying a difference between Amaterasu and other Sun gods even though i can guess it wasn't the intention. Thats just what it makes me feel anyhow.

Then you would understand that Nasu - a Japanese author who wrote a story about a Japanese teenager banging genderbent king Arthur - would have bias towards Japanese culture and Christianity.

As for the Sefar stuffs, it's very strange due to the wording. When Tamamo said "we" lost to the titan and listed a bunch of gods, you can interpret that as her admitting all of the gods including herself lost, or "watakushitachi" here is referring to just "yeah we - the gods - lost" in general without being specific. We don't know the details on what actually went down. Not to mention the comparison from Extella mats putting her above the titan as well as her answer to Hakuno regarding the possibility of gods winning and the sun gods. Without actual explanation from Nasu of what actually went down, you can see it both ways tbh. Either that yes Amaterasu was technically stronger than even the titan in power, but she jobbed cuz titan is built to be against concepts, or she lost on purpose becuz she's Beast Zero who wanted the titan to destroy all gods to buff humans or some shit I don't know, or she didn't even fight.

Whenever TM decides to make them into actual characters will be sweet. What I like the Amaterasu/Susanoo and Tsukuyomi dynamic is that none of them get along with each other. And me seeing Tamamo in Amaterasu's place and interacting with them I'm sure would be funny.

Well the more interesting part for me is that while the brothers don't rly get along with the big sister, they all respect her and willing to set aside old quarrels. Tsukuyomi has little to no notable activity in the myths and apparently never talk to his sister again after the fall out, but there is a legend in Yakami-gun that when Amaterasu visited the place and was looking for a place to camp, a white rabbit shows up praising her beauty and led her to the best spot possible. That rabbit is assumed to be Tsukuyomi (the association of white rabbit pounding mochi on the moon with the moon and Kaguyahime, also base on Chang E of Chinese myth). SusanoO also gave Amaterasu the sword he got from Orochi to reconcile and was accepted back. Amaterasu also took all children kami born from her fight with SusanoO as her children and raised them.

[Deathhappens]

While I don't want to barge into what is otherwise a fairly entertaining wankfight in true TM spirit, I wish to point your attention to a little something called "popular culture".
Specifically from Nobunaga's article in Wikipedia (which also has a separate, much larger page for pop culture depictions of Sengoku-era personages):

"Nobunaga appears frequently within fiction and continues to be portrayed in many different anime, manga, video games, and cinematic films. Many depictions show him as villainous or even demonic in nature, though some portray him in a more positive light. The latter type of works include Akira Kurosawa's film Kagemusha, which portrays Nobunaga as energetic, athletic and respectful towards his enemies. The film Goemon portrays him as a saintly mentor of Ishikawa Goemon. Nobunaga is a central character in Eiji Yoshikawa's historical novel Taiko Ki, where he is a firm but benevolent lord. Nobunaga is also portrayed in a heroic light in some video games such as Kessen III, Ninja Gaiden II, and the Warriors Orochi series.[citation needed]. While in the anime series "Nobunaga no Shinobi" Nobunaga is portrayed as a kind person as well as having a major sweet tooth.
By contrast, the novel and anime series Yōtōden portrays Nobunaga as a literal demon in addition to a power-mad warlord. In the novel The Samurai's Tale by Erik Christian Haugaard, he is portrayed as an antagonist "known for his merciless cruelty".[25] He is portrayed as evil or megalomaniacal in some anime and manga series including Samurai Deeper Kyo and Flame of Recca. Nobunaga is portrayed as evil, villainous, bloodthirsty, and/or demonic in many video games such as Ninja Master's, Sengoku, Maplestory, Inindo: Way of the Ninja and Atlantica Online, and the video game series Onimusha, Samurai Warriors, Sengoku Basara (and its anime adaptation), and Soulcalibur.[citation needed]
Nobunaga has been portrayed numerous times in a more neutral or historic framework, especially in the Taiga dramas shown on television in Japan. Oda Nobunaga appears in the manga series Tail of the Moon, Kacchū no Senshi Gamu, and Tsuji Kunio's historical fiction The Signore: Shogun of the Warring States. Historical representations in video games (mostly Western-made strategy titles) include Shogun: Total War, Total War: Shogun 2, Throne of Darkness, the eponymous Nobunaga's Ambition series, as well as Civilization V[26] and Age of Empires II: The Conquerors. Kamenashi Kazuya of the Japanese pop group KAT-TUN wrote and performed a song titled "1582" which is written from the perspective of Mori Ranmaru during the coup at Honnō temple.[27]
Nobunaga has also been portrayed fictively, such as when the figure of Nobunaga influences a story or inspires a characterization. In James Clavell's novel Shōgun, the character Goroda is a pastiche of Nobunaga. In the film Sengoku Jieitai 1549, Nobunaga is killed by time-travellers. Nobunaga also appears as a major character in the eroge Sengoku Rance and is a playable character in Pokémon Conquest, with his partner Pokémon being Hydreigon, Rayquaza and Zekrom.[28] In the anime Sengoku Otome: Momoiro Paradox, in Sengoku Collection, and the light novel and anime series The Ambition of Oda Nobuna, he is depicted as a female character. He is the main character of the stage action and anime adaptation of Nobunaga the Fool.[citation needed] In Kouta Hirano's Drifters, Nobunaga is sent to another world to fight against other historical figures and displays equal parts tactical brilliance and gleeful brutality.
Oda Nobunaga is mentioned as the daimyo who unified Japan in the 2007 movie War."

Even the most historically-inclined writer (which, let's be honest, Nasu by and large is not) will be influenced by what he sees and hears in everyday life. Real-life Nobunaga might have been a clever politician as well as strategist who knew damn well that if he let the various monk sects do whatever they wanted he would never be truly able to unite Japan; but the propaganda they spread of him during the day calling him the Dai Rokuten Maou (which he at least in part embraced, because again, being a clever politician he realised that while he couldn't suppress it he could damn well make it work for him) survived and has grown into an integral part of his character in popular culture. Thus, even when he's not portrayed as a cruel megalomaniacal and ambitious villain, whoever is writing him will be thinking and including that part of his story, historically accurate or not.

[Lily Emilio]

And why are you posting this? Do you think I don't know about all this shit before voicing my complaints?

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It's like you didn't read my points at all. What I complaint is literally about Typemoon focusing way too much on what the so-called "popular culture" shaped Nobu, the thing you're trying to make ppl pay attention to.

[eddyak]

That's literally what a legend is, though. What people think of them, rather than what they really are.

[Lily Emilio]

Yes, which is why I have no idea why the person posted that. My complaint the entire time is basically "they focused on this side of the legend way too much instead of exploring other parts (which TM is indeed capable of) that not only more historically correct but also allow them to wank the character more, can even lead to deeper characterization, but the character is made to be gag in the first place so I'll swallow my salt and fap to her hentai".

[Deathhappens]

Yes, which is why I have no idea why the person posted that. My complaint the entire time is basically "they focused on this side of the legend way too much instead of exploring other parts (which TM is indeed capable of) that not only more historically correct but also allow them to wank the character more, can even lead to deeper characterization, but the character is made to be gag in the first place so I'll swallow my salt and fap to her hentai".

They didn't focus on "a side of the legend". They literally focused on what the legend of Nobunaga is in popular culture. "A cunning strategist who acts like a fool and may or may not be evil." I get that you'd prefer they did an alternative interpretation, like they did with Nero, but the version they went with is exactly what Nobunaga is "supposed to be".

[Lily Emilio]

They didn't focus on "a side of the legend". They literally focused on what the legend of Nobunaga is in popular culture. "A cunning strategist who acts like a fool and may or may not be evil." I get that you'd prefer they did an alternative interpretation, like they did with Nero, but the version they went with is exactly what Nobunaga is "supposed to be".

No. Nasu and co do researches from historical sources which take months (as they explained), that's why they can add ridiculous amount of obscure references and concepts onto a character that you don't normally see being shown in "popular culture" ever (see Tamamo for example). They tried to escape what you think they followed, my dude. Nero is the perfect example for this point but no I don't like what they did with her either.

The difference between Fate characters and them in popular culture are the various aspects/sides of a character in legend all being explored through different versions of them. Nobu is simply gag + demonization aspect like any other servants, but because of the lack of attention to details like they normally do for other servants she turned out to be similar to what she is in popular culture, something they tried to avoid. You do get to see some of what I wanted in the material book and the 2 Guda events, but it is still too little. They can make a more mature Nobu with a focus on missing aspects, call it "the Nobu without being influenced by demonization" and they will fix this, or just focus on those more with the current Nobu. That is what the servants are about, an aspect/side of the full heroic spirit (their legend) in the throne. They just need to explore the other sides, simple as that.

[castor212]

Tldr "nobunaga too one dimensional shoulda make her as deep as other taipumuun character oh wait shes a gag character eh its fine then i guess"

which has a valid point tbpf

i personally am already surprised that a gag character like nobunaga actually got as much as she have

[You]

but in TM gag characters are the deepest characters

[Iceblade44]

No. Nasu and co do researches from historical sources which take months (as they explained), that's why they can add ridiculous amount of obscure references and concepts onto a character that you don't normally see being shown in "popular culture" ever (see Tamamo for example). They tried to escape what you think they followed, my dude. Nero is the perfect example for this point but no I don't like what they did with her either.

The difference between Fate characters and them in popular culture are the various aspects/sides of a character in legend all being explored through different versions of them. Nobu is simply gag + demonization aspect like any other servants, but because of the lack of attention to details like they normally do for other servants she turned out to be similar to what she is in popular culture, something they tried to avoid. You do get to see some of what I wanted in the material book and the 2 Guda events, but it is still too little. They can make a more mature Nobu with a focus on missing aspects, call it "the Nobu without being influenced by demonization" and they will fix this, or just focus on those more with the current Nobu. That is what the servants are about, an aspect/side of the full heroic spirit (their legend) in the throne. They just need to explore the other sides, simple as that.

Actually in the case of Nobu, it should be noted that she wasn't created normally for stuff like the context of GO or something like that, but was proposed for a gag manga. Keikenchi was the one who designed for that with the input of Nasu, but we don't know how seriously they went at it for something like this. To me the fact that when added to GO they changed her militaty tactics for strategy implies that they did deeper research only at that point.