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Thread: Badass Versus Thread

  1. #117221
    Beats By Matthew ft. Dr. Para Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    Hey, he was in Billy's interlude too!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  2. #117222
    O Beast of CaerbannogAAAAARRGH!!? castor212's Avatar
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    I mean, literally in Okeanos, Hector's was fronting all the time and is actually watxhing Teach carefully to look for a chance to strike him.

    Or when he saw the opportunity to remove asterios together with Herc and took the initiative.

    Still dunno how would this translate to "skeevy who can only run away or being politic"
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    you don't need to think about it that hard
    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    I dont get it
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    nothing makes sense

  3. #117223
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    I mean, literally in Okeanos, Hector's was fronting all the time and is actually watxhing Teach carefully to look for a chance to strike him.

    Or when he saw the opportunity to remove asterios together with Herc and took the initiative.

    Still dunno how would someone think his lazy is not a front if someone had actually read Okeanos.
    Agree with the first part but wasn't the herk+Asterios Jason's idea to deal with both Herk rampaging to much that he could kill Euryale and Asterios who was protecting her
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  4. #117224
    O Beast of CaerbannogAAAAARRGH!!? castor212's Avatar
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    Honestly p sure youre exaggerating for biased reason

    Like, you sound like someone who didnt read Okeanos.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceblade44 View Post
    Agree with the first part but wasn't the herk+Asterios Jason's idea to deal with both Herk rampaging to much that he could kill Euryale and Asterios who was protecting her
    It is

    My point is that thats not "a guy who can only run away or being politic savvy"

    Thats just lol. A superficial understatement, even taking account only the show and not tell.
    Last edited by castor212; July 6th, 2018 at 02:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    you don't need to think about it that hard
    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    I dont get it
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    nothing makes sense

  5. #117225
    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceblade44 View Post
    And let me ask of you. Does that have to do more with Hectors character which you are complaining about or does it have to do that Hector has only had 1 role so far in any story yet. We know his character, we cannot say that is wrong because that is literally TMs stance on it, what's the problem is that Hector hasn't been given a chance. Yea we need the show but that doesn't mean you can ignore the tell. That was what Castor was talking about exxargerations. Complain about Hectors role in the story, that's fine but only taking that into account but ignoring the other stuff just because we haven't seen it is bad. Materials are literally there to tell you stuff that you couldn't see in the story. So that is his character, not what you think it is because that's how mats work. To explain what wasn't explained
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the actual game.

    That's like saying Gilles isn't an insane murderer because somewhere in his mats profile there's a line that says "but deep down he still loves children".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    I mean, literally in Okeanos, Hector's was fronting all the time and is actually watxhing Teach carefully to look for a chance to strike him.

    Or when he saw the opportunity to remove asterios together with Herc and took the initiative.

    Still dunno how would this translate to "skeevy who can only run away or being politic"

    Change skeevy (which is really a complaint about his looks more than anything else) to sly, if you prefer, and you'd still be dead on. He fights using underhanded means all throughout Okeanos and even when he's finally cornered into a straight fight he tries to get a cheap shot in at you. Yes, I am exaggerating a bit, but his presentation in F/GO is anything but heroic.
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  6. #117226
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Agree with mister innevitable fate there, on the topic of story info and characterization >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mats stuff that tries to compensate for those.

    Reminds me a bit of how they went about addressing gowtia`s emotions vs how they were shown in the story

    - - - Updated - - -

    *goetia
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

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  7. #117227
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the actual game.

    That's like saying Gilles isn't an insane murderer because somewhere in his mats profile there's a line that says "but deep down he still loves children".
    Your original complaint was this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Achilles gets too much OP stuff, Hector apparently went down in history as a skeevy loser who only knows how to run away and politics his way out.
    That is talking about Hector's character which isn't true for the reasons I stated, that it's a front. Whether or not it's in the story isn't the problem(which it is by the way) then it is that you are refusing to look at the bigger picture, notice what you want to see and ignoring everything else that give meaning and explanation. The fact that it comes from a material book doesn't matter because that it literally what they are there for. To answer unanswered questions. You are literally ignoring word of God, that this is what the author, the creator was trying to do.

    Also the example of Gilles doesn't hold up because again that's not looking at the bigger picture. Saying that Gilles being an insane murderer and that his love for children is incompatible is completely ignoring his character. Why is he murderer. Why is he insane. Why does he love children. What your trying to do is just take one aspect of a character and say that it's the only part. That's not how it works.


    - - - Updated - - -




    Change skeevy (which is really a complaint about his looks more than anything else) to sly, if you prefer, and you'd still be dead on. He fights using underhanded means all throughout Okeanos and even when he's finally cornered into a straight fight he tries to get a cheap shot in at you. Yes, I am exaggerating a bit, but his presentation in F/GO is anything but heroic.
    He fights underhandedily. No one is disputing that, but fighting fairly isn't all what it means to be heroic. Read the quotes I posted, read why he fights as he does. Those reasons are why he is a hero, because he fights against a hopeless battle using whatever he can and it works. Your only looking at one part, what he does. Your not asking why does he do it.

    Also in Okeanos he was an antagonist for Christ sakes, why would he seem heroic if you weren't on his side. That doesn't devalue that he is a hero and died one

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    Agree with mister innevitable fate there, on the topic of story info and characterization >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mats stuff that tries to compensate for those.

    Reminds me a bit of how they went about addressing gowtia`s emotions vs how they were shown in the story

    - - - Updated - - -

    *goetia
    Those two things aren't exclusive. There supppsed to compliment each other not to oppose each other. There isn't a contradiction to what we saw and what was explained. It's simply one is how we saw it, the other an explanation to why. That is the purpose of mats, the explain why things are.
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  8. #117228
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Angry Rin has a point. Even when he's striking at weak points in Okeanos, he's still just acting like some backstabbing scrub, rather than the tactician and fighter so good he could have won the Trojan War even with a literally near-invincible demigod taking the field against him.

    The sly old man who pretends he can't be arsed thing is a trope, and it's one not done very well in this case.
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  9. #117229
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Angry Rin has a point. Even when he's striking at weak points in Okeanos, he's still just acting like some backstabbing scrub, rather than the tactician and fighter so good he could have won the Trojan War even with a literally near-invincible demigod taking the field against him.

    The sly old man who pretends he can't be arsed thing is a trope, and it's one not done very well in this case.
    And that's fine because that is a complaint to how he was in the story. What isn't fine is taking that to meaning that's all his character is in a nut shell and ignoring stuff that's literally also in the game. Not just mats.

    Complain you didn't like his role in Okeanos, I didn't either. I still love Hector and adore his character from other stuff I saw though and have found that his actions in that chapter while a bit one sided isn't out of character that it contradicts everything more that it is the only thing.
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  10. #117230
    O Beast of CaerbannogAAAAARRGH!!? castor212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Yes, I am exaggerating a bit, but his presentation in F/GO is anything but heroic.
    Nobody saying he be heroic.

    People are saying that his unmotivated self is a front, which was told in the story itself as opposed to just tell, to cover his actual capable self.

    Your complain made him sounds like a loser coward who can only politc his way or ran away

    You basically described Hector as Jason.

    Which is just lol.

    You overexaggerate him in a superficial way.

    I just find these sort of shallow description genuinely laughable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    Agree with mister innevitable fate there, on the topic of story info and characterization >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mats stuff that tries to compensate for those.

    Reminds me a bit of how they went about addressing gowtia`s emotions vs how they were shown in the story

    - - - Updated - - -

    *goetia
    Ok but goetia's emotion is actually spot on and match in the story and in the mats itself???
    Last edited by castor212; July 6th, 2018 at 04:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    you don't need to think about it that hard
    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    I dont get it
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    nothing makes sense

  11. #117231
    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    Nobody saying he be heroic.

    People are saying that his unmotivated self is a front, which was told in the story itself as opposed to just tell, to cover his actual capable self.

    Your complain made him sounds like a loser coward who can only politc his way or ran away

    You basically described Hector as Jason.

    Which is just lol.

    You overexaggerate him in a superficial way.

    I just find these sort of shallow description genuinely laughable.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ok but goetia's emotion is actually spot on and match in the story and in the mats itself???
    Superficial? That's literally the sum of his traits THAT WE SEE IN THE GAME.
    I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I'll say it +1: A character's measure in a story is judged by how the character is portrayed and how he interacts with the rest of the characters and the world, not by whatever note the author has in his pad.
    In this case, no matter what kind of "secretly always serious" personality the writer envisioned, Hector comes across as an archetypical "dirty old uncle". A trope, as Eddyak said. And no matter how well he actually does in terms of results, that kind of personality just doesn't fit the hero of the Trojans at all. Hence "hardly heroic". He SHOULD BE heroic.
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
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  12. #117232
    タワー Ruisu's Avatar
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    If I got a dollar for everytime the "character in fate isn't quite the cool and badass version I expected" complaint comes up I could NP5 Jeanne Alter. It's right up there with character alignments.




  13. #117233
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Superficial? That's literally the sum of his traits THAT WE SEE IN THE GAME.
    I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I'll say it +1: A character's measure in a story is judged by how the character is portrayed and how he interacts with the rest of the characters and the world, not by whatever note the author has in his pad.
    In this case, no matter what kind of "secretly always serious" personality the writer envisioned, Hector comes across as an archetypical "dirty old uncle". A trope, as Eddyak said. And no matter how well he actually does in terms of results, that kind of personality just doesn't fit the hero of the Trojans at all. Hence "hardly heroic". He SHOULD BE heroic.
    But are you looking at everything in the game. You don't even need to look in the mats to see that. His bond 5 voice line, his interlude, him in Da Vinci event, him in Salomon, his original up bond ce(the one in English skipped some lines for some reason.) Even in Okeanos he doesn't entirely fit into your idea of dirty old man.

    Also let me ask you, what is your idea of a hero? Because to me Hector is as Heroic as you get from his plain dedication to his people and family. Hector's fighting methods doesn't detract from it but enhance it because I can see why he does it. This is just what I think anyhow.
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  14. #117234
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six forumghost's Avatar
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    I mean all of that is kinda getting away from the point, which is that Hector gets Curbstomped hard.

    Achilles stats: B+/A/A+/C/D/A+
    Hectors stats: B/B/A/B/B/B

    The only thing he has on Achilles is Mana and Luck, and I'm not sure if this includes Achilles Mama Buff.

    Now on to NP:

    Hector has big esplodey spear.

    Achilles has Magic Chariot, and World Blocking Shield, and Invincibility against non divinity (which Hector is) and Sanic Speed.

    Here he is utterly outclassed.

    So yeah, Hector's boned.

  15. #117235
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    I mean all of that is kinda getting away from the point, which is that Hector gets Curbstomped hard.

    Achilles stats: B+/A/A+/C/D/A+
    Hectors stats: B/B/A/B/B/B

    The only thing he has on Achilles is Mana and Luck, and I'm not sure if this includes Achilles Mama Buff.

    Now on to NP:

    Hector has big esplodey spear.

    Achilles has Magic Chariot, and World Blocking Shield, and Invincibility against non divinity (which Hector is) and Sanic Speed.

    Here he is utterly outclassed.

    So yeah, Hector's boned.
    The spear probably could destroy the chariot considering.

    Achilles stats do include his buff.

    Hector can canonically run away from Achilles. It ain't that hard. Chiron did it plenty in Apo dodging and weaving Achilles onslaught.

    The immortality still means Achilles would win in a straight fight but that again ain't Hectors style. Again exhaust Achilles master, it will work. Also something Hector didn't know in life but knows now is Achilles weak spot. He can devise strategies around that.
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  16. #117236
    死徒 Dead Apostle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceblade44 View Post
    The spear probably could destroy the chariot considering.

    Achilles stats do include his buff.

    Hector can canonically run away from Achilles. It ain't that hard. Chiron did it plenty in Apo dodging and weaving Achilles onslaught.

    The immortality still means Achilles would win in a straight fight but that again ain't Hectors style. Again exhaust Achilles master, it will work. Also something Hector didn't know in life but knows now is Achilles weak spot. He can devise strategies around that.
    Chiron knows Achilles and has clairvoyance. Hector only has one of those advantages.

    What makes you think Achilles' master will run out of mana? Only his chariot has been called mana intensive.

  17. #117237
    Beats By Matthew ft. Dr. Para Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    Achilles's entire existence is mana-intensive. His chariot is just maximum drainage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  18. #117238
    The Best Kind of P.C. Megas's Avatar
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    What if we just say they're both Ilya powered to avoid this point entirely?
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  19. #117239
    吸血鬼 Vampire UshiProtector's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megas View Post
    What if we just say they're both Ilya powered to avoid this point entirely?
    That'd be meaningless since Hector would always run away.
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  20. #117240
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
    Chiron knows Achilles and has clairvoyance. Hector only has one of those advantages.

    What makes you think Achilles' master will run out of mana? Only his chariot has been called mana intensive.
    While Hector doesn't have a skill for it the mats does say he has very high analytical abilties so that should help abit. Also again I'm pointing out that Hector literally did that stuff to Achilles, and this ain't normal Achilles but an Achilles powered up by rage over his friends death and he still had to make a deal that disadvantage him so he could even had a shot of fighting Hector because no matter what he did he couldn't catch him
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