Badass Versus Thread

[fire_mountain_30]

Again, this isn't evidence for Aoko. Assumptions =/= evidence and wanking Aoko =/= presenting a worthwhile argument

Aahahahahahaha!!!!!

Like you are doing to prove Gil's projectile speed or that they are faster than the advanced runes Touko shot her with, hu smartypants?

You are the person most going off assumptions here.

I am using your own logic and Nasu's statements to prove her reaction speed is at least on par with an average servant. What have you proven in this entire conversation?

I seriously cant believe i have to spend this long explaining why someone that uses Magic in the same ballpark as the one that killed a TYPE and is mostly a direct combat specialist isnt fodder

[AAM1232]

Aahahahahahaha!!!!!

Like you are doing to prove Gil's projectile speed or that they are faster than the advanced runes Touko shot her with, hu smartypants?

We have above average Servants like Cu, Seiba, Lancelot and Herc have trouble with it, what makes you so sure Aoko won't, other than imagination?

[fire_mountain_30]

You step up to your own standards. Prove to me without any assumptions that Gil's projectiles would absolutely, without any room for doubt, hopelessly blitz Aoko

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We have above average Servants like Cu, Seiba, Lancelot and Herc have trouble with it, what makes you so sure Aoko won't, other than imagination?

Cu fought him for half a day, without even a master's backup

Seiba could react to it and was still nerfed by shirou and holding her cards in

Herc was mad and trying to protect illya

Lancelot could react to them just fine. Numbers =/= speed


Iskandar walked through at least 80 of them to reach Gil with D agility

UBW spam cant kill servants according to shirou

Astolfo and Fran easily survived a rain of arrows from the gods without the need for any special abilities

[AAM1232]

You step up to your own standards. Prove to me without any assumptions that Gil's projectiles would absolutely, without any room for doubt, hopelessly blitz Aoko

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Cu fought him for half a day, without even a master's backup

Seiba could react to it and was still nerfed by shirou and holding her cards in

Herc was mad and trying to protect illya

Lancelot could react to them just fine. Numbers =/= speed


Iskandar walked through at least 80 of them to reach Gil with D agility

UBW spam cant kill servants according to shirou

Astolfo and Fran easily survived a rain of arrows from the gods without the need for any special abilities

Cu has a skill for it that helps immensely.

Seiba had trouble with it.

Lancelot isn't average.

Again, still nothing to show that Aoko is as fast as Iskander or Astolfo, so maybe try to prove that rather than wave your hands hopefully thinking it'll be taken for granted.

[forumghost]

So seeing as this discussion is going round in circles I propose we drop it and go back to my earlier post and discuss Aoko vs Rin: who tops?

Instead of "prove Aoko can do this" "nu-uh, you prove she can't"

[You]

We see him taking hits, but it is only a fraction of the total number of swords that were fired on him. So those were either dodged or blocked. The guy didnt take 80 swords. (And again, anime visuals)

I didnt say that they can just waltz past it. I just said that they can react to the projectiles (as Alex showed when Lancelot first showed up). The large numbers often get the better of most anyone

All that is required in this case is to be able to react while the swords are still travelling through thr Road of Babylon (for Aoko's case specifically)

3 CS with non specific orders and that were used several minutes prior if not over an hour prior. Non specific commands arent worth much

The chapters in zero are timestamped

-04:16:49
“My Servant. I, Waver Velvet, use a Command Seal to give this order.”
...
While the method of usage made little impression, since the three Seals conformed to the Servant's own will and furthermore were activated in succession, Rider received a definite effect from Waver's Command Seals. As long as he aspired toward the action of 'victory', Rider would receive an amplified amount of Prana support compared to normal. Frankly, the current Rider was, even more so than in the past, at his 'most perfect'.
03:59:04

It's about 15 minutes from Waver using the CS's and him fighting Gil. It's definitely showing a pronounced effect.

[eddyak]

So seeing as this discussion is going round in circles I propose we drop it and go back to my earlier post and discuss Aoko vs Rin: who tops?

That depends whether we're talking Mahoyo Aoko or older meets-Shiki Aoko.

Also young pre- or post-realised-she-wants-to-bang-Saber Rin, or older Clocktower Rin.

[AAM1232]

So seeing as this discussion is going round in circles I propose we drop it and go back to my earlier post and discuss Aoko vs Rin: who tops?

Instead of "prove Aoko can do this" "nu-uh, you prove she can't"

How dominant is Aoko?

[fire_mountain_30]

Cu has a skill for it that helps immensely.

Seiba had trouble with it.

Lancelot isn't average.

Again, still nothing to show that Aoko is as fast as Iskander or Astolfo, so maybe try to prove that rather than wave your hands hopefully thinking it'll be taken for granted.

Dude

Aoko is comprable to an average servant (B ranks)

Astolfo is flat out stated to be a third rate servant in his character materials

Iskandar's D rank agility is abysmal



Also


Emiya's stats are below average

Emiya fighting shirou started with less than 10% of his power

After fighing shirou and expending the required mana, he would be weaker

Still able to react to GoB despite not even knowing Gil was there beforehand in order to shield shirou.

Aoko is comparable to a healthy average servant. There is nothing you can say to convince me that she couldnt react to it if even that version of archer managed to

[Zurvan]

Dude drop it, have your headcanon and celebrate good timrs or something

[AAM1232]

Dude

Aoko is comprable to an average servant (B ranks)

Astolfo is flat out stated to be a third rate servant in his character materials

Iskandar's D rank agility is abysmal



Also


Emiya's stats are below average

Emiya fighting shirou started with less than 10% of his power

After fighing shirou and expending the required mana, he would be weaker

Still able to react to GoB despite not even knowing Gil was there beforehand in order to shield shirou.

Aoko is comparable to a healthy average servant. There is nothing you can say to convince me that she couldnt react to it if even that version of archer managed to

Of course not, it's pretty hard to let go of misconceptions when fan favourites are involved. This argument of Aoko being Servant level statwise still doesn't mean a thing when you have zero proof for it and pretending otherwise is insanity.

[Leftovers]

Aoko is comprable to an average servant (B ranks)
[...]
Aoko is comparable to a healthy average servant.

Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?
A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.
Q. I have a question about the Servants vs. other character answer in the 9th issue of Comptiq. About a Servant with an average Noble Phantasm, who would have one and what rank would that have been?
A: That's a serious question. The level of the Noble Phantasm would be B, and ability being represented by numbers would be called an average Noble Phantasm. Broken Phantasm, Barrier of the Wind King (C), Gae Bolg (thrown) (B), that sort.
On the other hand, those with conceptual effects, destiny interference types fall into a special category. With Gae Bolg (regular), no matter how much Arcueid might be superior to Lancer in numbers, she will be killed depending on her luck, you see.

servant with average noble phantasm ≠ average servant

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personally i would infer that with NPs being straight up power output or conceptual fuckery as the deciding factor on whether X can fight servants it can be assumed for the purpose of the question that barring outliers the other stats aren't an issue in the average vs

[AAM1232]

This is a bit different from claiming Aoko can pull an attack before getting a NP through her.

[fire_mountain_30]

Of course not, it's pretty hard to let go of misconceptions when fan favourites are involved. This argument of Aoko being Servant level statwise still doesn't mean a thing when you have zero proof for it and pretending otherwise is insanity.

I actually like Gil a lot more than i like Aoko

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servant with average noble phantasm ≠ average servant

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personally i would infer that with NPs being straight up power output or conceptual fuckery as the deciding factor on whether X can fight servants it can be assumed for the purpose of the question that barring outliers the other stats aren't an issue in the average vs

You cant fight a servant and have the NP be the deciding benchmark for the comparisson if you cant keep up with the servant in the 1st place. Astolfo doesnt need any spear or NP when he massively outmatches you.

And if nearly dead Emiya could react to it and 3rd rates like Astolfo can react to it, i see no reason why someone that is compared with rhe average servant cant do that.

Edit: ok so your deduction is that for the most part stats dont matter for the sake of the question being asked of Nasu? Ok then. Even more reason n9t to assume that she cant perform servant level feats of agility either then.

Heck, servants are fast enough to run up walls and holy cyborgs that are below Ciel are as well, so i increasingly dont see a reason to dismiss humans.

Even police officers can keep up with a servant with A rank agility

[Ronove]

Eh. Isn't Aoko one of those special humans that can fight servants along with Kouma and co? Not seeing any reason she can't keep up with Gil when speed isn't a huge thing with servants unless you're talking Cu and Emiya's worth of difference.

[Daiki]

She is one of the few exceptions who can manage a fight. Against servants with no game-breaking NPs.

That doesn't sound like Gilgamesh.

I mean, Aoko is the kind of opponent you can't underestimate, since she is not a regular opponent and specializes in destruction.

But Gil is jack of all trades with an answer to basically everything. She could certainly wound him - granted she can bypass MR and broken armor but she needs the opportunity for that. Alas, I don't see that happening, unless she has preps.

I can see her destroying Phantasms, sure. I can see her triggering explosions to disperse/deflect projectiles. I can see her pull a mean kamehameha and rampage through a sword rain. But she is more likely to get messed up by hax NPs that screw with her abilities or simply ending up overwhelmed by sheer number.

If Saber, with her intuition, can't react to Gil's activated phantasms, I doubt Aoko would fare better.

[AAM1232]

Stacking the deck and assuming stuff for no reason makes the whole thing pointless.

[Zork Knight]

And if nearly dead Emiya could react to it and 3rd rates like Astolfo can react to it, i see no reason why someone that is compared with rhe average servant cant do that.

>Eye of the Mind

[Deathhappens]

Once again, "can fight against" =/= "has equal or even comparable stats to". Shirou can fight against Gilgamesh, but he'd be dead meat against other Servants.

[fire_mountain_30]

Once again, "can fight against" =/= "has equal or even comparable stats to". Shirou can fight against Gilgamesh, but he'd be dead meat against other Servants.

In Apo it was revealed that incarnated servants get dropped to human level, if we take Amakusa at his word

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Stacking the deck and assuming stuff for no reason makes the whole thing pointless.

What are you doing again?

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>Eye of the Mind

She can do something similar via extremely lucid future simulations