Actually, you know who Orochimaru is most similar to in TM? Roa. In that case, who would win between the two?
Roa, all the way.
"Here's a bangin lil' tune about takin' on The Man!"
(Check out my Super Special Awesome Servant Compendium here)
Wasn't Orochi's end goal immortality? In that case, Roa got there first.
FGO Supports
Technically, Orochimaru got to his end goal upon inventing his Cursed Seals, and everything else was just him trying to have it all. His next goal was getting the Rinnegan for himself and finding the origin of ninjutsu from there. Also, you guys really think Roa would beat him in a fight?
I'm not seeing how Orochimaru actually beats Roa (per variable definition of beating).
Doesn't roach have a soul-killing spell?
Also isn't he one of the top tier narutards, literally just a day after BL basically unilaterally agreed Naturos beat Servants?
FGO Supports
Blackbeard vs Black Bart
I think he's talking about that fame boost when around stoners we've never seen in action.
Maybe, but Moore has no problem bastardizing some of the literary figures he depicts either. Like how he had Jonathan dump Mina off-panel because her scars were ugly, while canon Jonathan was willing to freaking turn into a vampire if he failed to save Mina just so she wouldn't be alone. Not even getting into what he did to Harry Potter...
He does need preptime, because Blackbeard would most likely be able to thwart Bart's encirclement tactic if the latter just decides to get his fleet into place without any caution. Tactics generally aren't effective if one sees it coming a mile away after all.
I have, you simply deflected saying that it was an exaggeration, aka not within your sensibilities.
Now, I'm not saying you're inherently wrong about where you perceive the servants. You have basis to believe this within the series itself. The problem is, I'm pointed out that the series simultaneously puts them on a higher level, leaving the levels of servants up to the debater.
Within what we've talked about and what you mentioned in your last post, there simply is no reason to surmise hypersonic movement for any Servant. At least not without going against the spirit of Occam's razor, which you invoked.
We *know* the limits of Servants' travel speed (and it's consistently subsonic). It's also explicitly mentioned when Servants move at supersonic speeds, or when a projectile does, which implies that the speed of sound is a meaningful benchmark. We also know that Servants can react to supersonic speeds even if they may not themselves be supersonic (i.e. dodging a supersonic projectile does not necessarily require supersonic movement).
So this is what the works tell us clearly: subsonic travel speed, supersonic combat speed (somewhat unusual, but still fair game), supersonic reaction times. Let's tentatively consider this a general picture of Fate speed.Spoiler:
Let's go through your examples and see whether they break this mold:
- Iskandar crosses 50m in an "instant". Consider that if someone closed that difference in the blink of an eye, the movement would still be subsonic, but you could definitely characterize that as an "instant". So there's a realistic interpretation which isn't in contradiction with our suppositions. While you can interpret "instant" as an arbitrarily small amount of time, that's you bringing unfounded assumptions that don't seem to fit within the general picture the works paint. Especially when the word "instant" isn't precise and doesn't tell you anything other than "From our (human) perspective, this is so fast we cannot even perceive it well.".Spoiler:
- Gilgamesh swipes away a supersonic arrow. Well, in this situation, Gilgamesh is looking straight at his attacker through a magic scope, and is prepared for the arrow coming straight at him. Swiping away at an arrow whose trajectory you know shows that Gilgamesh can react to supersonic projectiles from a certain distance (which is rather large here, actually). This isn't any different from a Servant deflecting a bullet, and falls well within our "general picture". Looking up the passage, a few bolts actually did strike the bow, it managed to tank them and escape another few bolts (probably the ones which were far away - we know the orbs are spread out around the top of the building). So there's nothing here that implies that the arrow is even close to lightning speed. Consider that, depending on the geometry of the situation, a projectile can hit its target even if there exists a faster interceptor. Add onto that that we don't know the specifics of Gil's NP: How quickly do the orbs react? Do they "recharge" automatically? Will they avoid attacking a projectile if it's too close to Gil (so as not to hurt him)? Looking at what we've surely been told: Gilgamesh, aware of a supersonic arrow, swipes it away after it survives his automated speed-of-lightning defense. Nothing here's out of the ordinary.Spoiler:
- Saber rivals a jet fighter in speed. Jet fighters cap out at 2.5 Mach. It's reasonable to assume that no jet fighter will be fighting at its absolute maximum speed. This means Saber can keep up with a jet fighter somewhere in the 1-2 Mach range. This implies supersonic short-term movement (if Saber could keep up such a pace, there'd be no reason to use the much slower bike, so this implies either short-term movement or extremely mana-consumptive movement). Since Saber is one of the high-tier Servants which has Prana Burst and is elsewhere mentioned to be supersonic (through Invisible Air), there's no inconsistency here. Even a very charitable interpretation doesn't put Saber close to hypersonic movement speed.Spoiler:
- Saber can dodge/intercept bullets from Zerk's M61. This is again, not an outlier. The passage you quoted says that modern artillery doesn't hurt Servants (and contrasts it to the NP'd M61 which is lethal), then goes on to say that for Artoria this is even more so since she can dodge and even intercept the bullets with her great agility. This means that only the more agile Servants would find dodging bullets truly effortless, but generally dodging bullets is fair game. Bullet velocity has a large range, from subsonic to a few hypersonic outliers. M61 shoots at around Mach 3. If you can perceive bullets at such speeds and can move at around Mach 1, you can already dodge such a bullet at a relatively short distance (you need to move a distance that's orders of magnitude smaller than the distance the bullet has to pass). Even if you say Lancelot's NP doubles the speed of the bullets (which is completely baseless), this would still hold. This is valid even more so for Saber who has Instinct, which would function to optimize her movements. So again, some supersonic reaction times, around supersonic short-burst movement, nothing special here.Spoiler:
I don't know why the hundreds of km/h are taken so seriously considering it's never been followed in the stories. Also, on Excalibur. https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2067/
- Gilgamesh can potentially dodge Excalibur. I may be missing something here, since there's absolutely nothing that implies Excalibur is light-speed. It doesn't look like a laser, obviously seems to have some "physicality" to it, and is able to clash with other NPs (light doesn't clash with itself or really with anything in the manner Excalibur does). Just because it's spoken of as a beautiful light, doesn't mean it's made of light and travels at light speed (hell, even Enuma Elish is spoken of as a light of the same magnitude in the VN excerpt you linked). It's even spoken of as crystalized light, which implies some "solidity" to it. So this interpretation is at clash with the work itself, I don't see why it should be taken seriously.
Also, on Fate/Stay Night. Getting the bad end of the clash reveals that it was on a fifty-story building. The average height of a story is 3m, so they traveled 150m in an instant, with multiple clashes along the way, not even being a straight line. This is notably supersonic even if it were a straight line, and it comes down to who's slower, Artoria with C-rank speed and mana bursts, or Rider, with B-rank agility. Once again, this is right before Rider's mount, which is supposedly faster, making the data entry contradict its quantifiable speed on its entry to the series.
Nope, you just didn't pay enough attention, and/or trying to justify the specific examples you back up. There's no denying that there's inconsistency.At this point, your "inconsistencies" don't come from the work itself, but from the unwillingness to find out the unifying logic that the work doesn't explicitly state.
It's an Alan Moore story through and through, with all the good and the bad that it entails. For what it's worth, I do recommend the first volume, it's a genuinely good story. Just don't expect the characters from Victorian literature to be as you've read them in the original works; for better or worse, they're basically Moore's characters.
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BL did? BL is being silly, then.
I mean bar from any actual ''powerlevels'' the very discussion alone sounds like a real mess
I can understand that decision
I don't remember ratifying any articles of official power level, in fact I recall checking out of the conversation completely as soon as someone looked at their comic book and instead of thinking, "wow, what a cool stylized fight scene" they decided it was proof the green pajama man can run at the speed of light by yelling hard