Badass Versus Thread

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

Rama's part of the Indian mythology. Even if you don't know who he is, it's a safe bet that their lowest level NPs are the mid-upper tiers of other mythologies' NPs.

Alkeides should have a strength-based noble phantasm that puts him above divine spirits and beasts given his labors, and he should have Helios's chariot. That doesn't mean we can gift it to him since we haven't seen anything like that yet in a VS debate. EMIYA should have a counter to Excalibur (hollow Atatraxia). Should have is not the same as the Nasuverse giving it to them. The same goes for Rama. Though, if we're really gonna approach the fight like this, it goes both ways. EMIYA should have nearly every weapon within GOB. What's to say that he shouldn't have a counter for every weapon within Rama's arsenal?

Well, considering Brahmastra is Anti-Demonic and Gram is a Demonic sword...

Affinity more likely than not, usually means greater damage against something rather than enhanced power. For instance, nothing indicates that Arondight was making Lancelot's physical attacks more powerful because of the anti-dragon attribute against Artoria. It would just make each hit more lethal. Balmung didn't win against Clarent Blood Arthur, despite it simply being an amplifier for Mordred's mana burst. If we're arguing that affinity works against weapons as well, then need I remind you that Rama wasn't exactly one-shotting Cu Alter, despite wielding a demonic lance that, even with grail support, scales substantially below Gram?

[eddyak]

Emiya almost certainly has an answer for most physical NPs. Does he ever pull them? Of course not, because grabbing a weapon you don't know how to use against a master of whatever your opponent is wielding is a stupid-as-fuck idea, and frankly he probably doesn't have the mana to power anything that could counter an ancient indian NP.

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

Emiya almost certainly has an answer for most physical NPs. Does he ever pull them? Of course not, because grabbing a weapon you don't know how to use against a master of whatever your opponent is wielding is a stupid-as-fuck idea, and frankly he probably doesn't have the mana to power anything that could counter an ancient indian NP.

He copies the memory of the sword and it runs on auto pilot as well as letting him use skills he shouldn't have in the first place, which is why EMIYA's deadly even in CQB (EMIYA VS Herc). Shirou, freaking Shirou, knows how to use the weapons immediately every occasion he uses one. Also, EMIYA: B-rank Mana. Servants that use extremely powerful NPs. Siegfried(who actually has countered ancient Indian NPs): C, Sigurd (original user of Gram): C, Mordred: B, Lancelot(depending on which set of stats lol): C, Karna (who uses an ancient Indian NP): B, Fion: B, Brynhildir: C, Arjuna(another Indian servant with a powerful NP): B.

So unless the mana stat is utterly irrelevant to capacity (but it clearly doesn't mean mana production), yes, EMIYA can use extraordinarily powerful NPs.

[BlackWatchar]

CMIIW, Isn't there a quate in VN that beside Gilgamesh UBW is not the best move to deal with highly skilled servant?
Rama outclassed him in stats and based from his legend and with his 1st skill he should be more skilled than Emiya in Sword, Bow, and Spear (Club, Cakram, and whip if you want include it). Vishnu Bhuja also make him like Gilgamesh but less versatile and more skilled. I mean his Extra animation summon weapon out of nowhere and and shoot them like Gilgamesh. For me Rama has more chance to win against Emiya

[OnesFleetingGlory]

What do you mean? What's Armiger?

It's an arsenal of weaponry owned by royalty in FFXV.



Rama's use of Vishnu Bhuja reminds me of it greatly.

[AAM1232]

I'm not sure how comparing mana stats of characters who have other ways of collecting mana is supposed to prove that Emiya can perfectly copy Indian NPs without quickly burning out.

Or that Emiya vs Herc is an actual thing that can be used as reference.

I'd give it to Rama most times out of 10.

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

CMIIW, Isn't there a quate in VN that beside Gilgamesh UBW is not the best move to deal with highly skilled servant?
Rama outclassed him in stats and based from his legend and with his 1st skill he should be more skilled than Emiya in Sword, Bow, and Spear (Club, Cakram, and whip if you want include it). Vishnu Bhuja also make him like Gilgamesh but less versatile and more skilled. I mean his Extra animation summon weapon out of nowhere and and shoot them like Gilgamesh. For me Rama has more chance to win against Emiya

Yes, but think about what that's saying. CMIII contradicts this saying that UBW is why EMIYA can be equal to servants or even better than them. Contextually, it's probably talking about UBW's ability to replicate an opponent's weapon, which really would only work against Gilgamesh. If we're interpreting CMII literally, then EMIYA's below Angra Mainyu, Hans, and Shakespeare, and we'd have to ignore the fact that UBW is the source of every bit of EMIYA's kit, and he's beaten Medea and Hassan of the cursed arm. UBW shooting NPs as bullets would have the same effect as GOB.

EMIYA is physically inferior to Cu, but was able to hold him off, and he's the 3rd most skilled spear user in the series. EMIYA is also physically inferior to Kojiro, but managed to survive a CQB fight with him (obviously lost, but surviving says a lot). The most notable thing about EMIYA that Herc thought about after their fight was his diverse skill set that should alone have made him easily identifiable as a specific heroic spirit. There's no way in hell Rama's more skilled when the only skill statement Rama has is that he's really great with all his weapons, which are diverse. This actually is no different than what EMIYA himself has shown, rather than only having statements. It's possible that Rama is equally skilled, and physically superior, so rip in that department.

It's an arsenal of weaponry owned by royalty in FFXV.



Rama's use of Vishnu Bhuja reminds me of it greatly.

Explains why I couldn't find it in his profile. This is kind of what I was referring to earlier. Now the dynamic's changed. If he can just arbitrarily manifest his weapons and launch them. Now he's really close to EMIYA at range, and could win in CQB, making the only really possible victory for EMIYA being nuking Rama with a an NP stronger than his, or casting UBW.

I'm not sure how comparing mana stats of characters who have other ways of collecting mana is supposed to prove that Emiya can perfectly copy Indian NPs without quickly burning out.

Or that Emiya vs Herc is an actual thing that can be used as reference.

I'd give it to Rama most times out of 10.

What other ways? What supports this? I'd like to see the argument that EMIYA vs Herc can't be used. It was pretty specifically mentioning CQB prowess. The most one could downplay it is that there was sword rain mixed with a CQB fight.

[Rafflesiac]

There's no way in hell Rama's more skilled when the only skill statement Rama has is that he's really great with all his weapons, which are diverse.

Blessing of Martial Arts: A
Eye of the Mind (True): B

- - - Updated - - -

But yeah, Rama has way better odds.

[Deathhappens]

EMIYA has historically and in every installment so far been noted as being an average-to-weak Servant who only holds up as well as he does thanks to his neverending bag of tricks, and that any real powerhouse Servant can muscle through his tricks without much trouble. For all the damage he did to Herc, he DID lose that fight (and Herc would've been back to normal within the week if he didn't have to fight Saber back to back). Gilgamesh is a one-in-a-lifetime example of a Servant his skillset counters completely, and even then we have it on good authority Gilgamesh would kill him if they fought. EMIYA is far from useless, of course, but in a straightforward versus battle he's never going to demonstrate the effectiveness he had in F/SN, and that's that.

[BlackWatchar]

EMIYA is physically inferior to Cu, but was able to hold him off, and he's the 3rd most skilled spear user in the series. EMIYA is also physically inferior to Kojiro, but managed to survive a CQB fight with him (obviously lost, but surviving says a lot). The most notable thing about EMIYA that Herc thought about after their fight was his diverse skill set that should alone have made him easily identifiable as a specific heroic spirit. There's no way in hell Rama's more skilled when the only skill statement Rama has is that he's really great with all his weapons, which are diverse. This actually is no different than what EMIYA himself has shown, rather than only having statements. It's possible that Rama is equally skilled, and physically superior, so rip in that department.

Cu hold back a lot during their first fight because Kirei's CS and even that Emiya cannot break though his defence and barely match him. Against Rama who mastered many weapon and can call out weapon like Gilgamesh he basically done for. Beside AGI and LUCK, most Kojira stats are way lower than Emiya and his STR only just one rank higher, Unlike Rama who basically outclassed him in every stats except Mana which is the same. While we don't know how skilled Rama compared to Kojira, he is still more skilled than Emiya in almost all weapons. We don't have many info about Emiya vs Herk. We don't how he fight or what situation during that fight. Heracles being insane and lost most of his skill doesn't help at all especially when comparing against a sane servant that know how to think and using their experience. Also you always assume that Emiya has higer nuke than Rama because his UBW is similar to GoB, but have you ever think the posibility that inside Vishu Bhuja has equal or more powerful nuke than Emiya?

[Deathhappens]

Also, I want to note that we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Rama wasn't a 4* with (until recently) weaksauce animations in FGO. If you want an even fight for EMIYA, try pitting him up against Okita or Hijikata.

[You]

So unless the mana stat is utterly irrelevant to capacity (but it clearly doesn't mean mana production), yes, EMIYA can use extraordinarily powerful NPs.

…That's right.
Archer's arrow did not hit her.
The arrow was shot into space far from Caster, and she had her protection destroyed by the after-effect.

The arrow missed.
…No, that's wrong.
It did not miss. It missed on purpose.
I don't know what his intentions are.
It was a big chance, but Archer missed Caster on purpose.

…Silence returns to the temple.
In front of me are Archer and Caster, who's glaring at Archer.
It must have been a lot for him, as I only feel weak magical energy from Archer now.

Sorry bud, EMIYA's a one pump chump.

[AAM1232]

Sorry bud, EMIYA's a one pump chump.

How did a Harem Protag fall so low?

[Zurvan]

He's better off screen, where the magic happens

[eddyak]

He copies the memory of the sword and it runs on auto pilot as well as letting him use skills he shouldn't have in the first place, which is why EMIYA's deadly even in CQB (EMIYA VS Herc). Shirou, freaking Shirou, knows how to use the weapons immediately every occasion he uses one. Also, EMIYA: B-rank Mana. Servants that use extremely powerful NPs. Siegfried(who actually has countered ancient Indian NPs): C, Sigurd (original user of Gram): C, Mordred: B, Lancelot(depending on which set of stats lol): C, Karna (who uses an ancient Indian NP): B, Fion: B, Brynhildir: C, Arjuna(another Indian servant with a powerful NP): B.

So unless the mana stat is utterly irrelevant to capacity (but it clearly doesn't mean mana production), yes, EMIYA can use extraordinarily powerful NPs.

No- no, he definitely doesn't. Name one instance where Shirou picks up a weapon and suddenly is as good with it as its own legendary hero. It's pretty clear each time Shirou projects a weapon, and the skills involved with it, that the weapon moves on its own. Caliburn fights like the original wielder was using it, he's only able to use K&B after he pirates the skills straight from Archer, Herc's sword does Herc's NP. None of it is his own skill, and he doesn't retain the skills once he's done with it.

If he was as proficient with the weapon as its own original user was, what would be the point in ever learning to use K&B? Just project a Gram in one hand and a Caliburn in the other and suddenly he's as good as Sigurd and Artoria put together!

You've got a way overinflated view of Archer.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

After this one:
Karna vs Quetz

I think Karna loses out to Quetz in term of Divinity. He could lose in CQC, unless K&K also protects his head.

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

Blessing of Martial Arts: A
Eye of the Mind (True): B

- - - Updated - - -

But yeah, Rama has way better odds.

I think you're misusing skills. They don't usually measure technique itself. For instance, Cu doesn't have a skill based on technique. Neither does Karna, Siegfried, Hector, Achilles, or Tristan, yet we all know these individuals have great techniques with their weapons. Some being better than others of course. If what you're going by were the case we could get all kinds of fun conclusions that no one would like, such as Mordred clowning Karna in skill, and Diarmuid embarrassing Cu. Eternal Arms Mastery is an exception, because Raiko's entry states it shows someone is the best martial artist in their lifetime. Mind's eye is a tactical skill, and not a full indicator of martial prowess.

As for Blessings of Martial Arts

Blessing of Martial Arts: A
Rama, whose fate is to defeat Demon King Ravana, not only excels in swordsmanship, but also with all forms of martial arts. Also, due to this, he can bring out his prided spear and bow with powers close to a Noble Phantasm while as a Saber.

Which does basically what I said it does, except it also enables Rama to use his other weapons like NPs, but it kinda indicates that they're nerfed, so this also hampers the argument others have made about the power of the weapons he should have. This, in no way is quantifying that he can't be matched by others who don't have a dedicated skill like this.

EMIYA has historically and in every installment so far been noted as being an average-to-weak Servant who only holds up as well as he does thanks to his neverending bag of tricks, and that any real powerhouse Servant can muscle through his tricks without much trouble. For all the damage he did to Herc, he DID lose that fight (and Herc would've been back to normal within the week if he didn't have to fight Saber back to back). Gilgamesh is a one-in-a-lifetime example of a Servant his skillset counters completely, and even then we have it on good authority Gilgamesh would kill him if they fought. EMIYA is far from useless, of course, but in a straightforward versus battle he's never going to demonstrate the effectiveness he had in F/SN, and that's that.

Yes, and these statements usually involved with things roughly saying "because he has no fame in this timeline" or "because he has no noble phantasm" indicating the conventional ways a servant's strength is measured. His reality marble basically gives him high-ranking NPs, basically making the statements mere technicalities. Basically, he's a strong combatant, just not in the ways Servants usually are. If we're playing the source book game, I can bring up that archers in general are known for having worse stats, but emphasize their skills and NPs, and that EMIYA is no exception, indicating that the ways that he's "weak" have no effect on him when acting in an archer role. Are you really going to argue that, if Archer launches an A+ (one rank degraded of course, so value of 90) anti-army NP as a broken phantasm against as "strong" servant that has an A-rank anti-army NP is going to end in anything but the "strong" servant getting overpowered and killed?

Right, he lost to Herc, but that's Herc, and it held statements such as "If Archer is a hero with such varied abilities, his true identity should have been clear," and "No matter who he really was, Archer was a rare, great enemy." Clearly the end result is a servant that can't be considered "average" as you're indicating. Herc received no damage from Saber, and it was days before EMIYA fought him, so he wasn't low on mana either. Not sure what's the basis of your opinion.

If you actually consider how EMIYA's can fight, FSN are a compilation of his lesser showings. He fights almost all of his battles with his default weapons, never switching it up (on screen) except against Shirou when he was at a fraction of his normal power. This is how he hides what his actual abilities are, so it's never an indicator of EMIYA's full fighting potential. It's only in Hollow Ataraxia (and some grand order events) when we get an idea of EMIYA out for the kill. In that, he repelled Rider(who could have just been avoiding conflict I'll concede), and Cu and basically made him homeless. Meanwhile, it was implied that he wasn't serious even then.

Cu hold back a lot during their first fight because Kirei's CS and even that Emiya cannot break though his defence and barely match him. Against Rama who mastered many weapon and can call out weapon like Gilgamesh he basically done for. Beside AGI and LUCK, most Kojira stats are way lower than Emiya and his STR only just one rank higher, Unlike Rama who basically outclassed him in every stats except Mana which is the same. While we don't know how skilled Rama compared to Kojira, he is still more skilled than Emiya in almost all weapons. We don't have many info about Emiya vs Herk. We don't how he fight or what situation during that fight. Heracles being insane and lost most of his skill doesn't help at all especially when comparing against a sane servant that know how to think and using their experience. Also you always assume that Emiya has higer nuke than Rama because his UBW is similar to GoB, but have you ever think the posibility that inside Vishu Bhuja has equal or more powerful nuke than Emiya?

Right, never said otherwise. Not necessarily. Kojiro, 1 rank greater attack power, 2 ranks lower in defense, and 2 ranks higher in speed and reaction time, and 7 in bursts. Yeah, Kojiro is substantially better than EMIYA physically. Meanwhile, for non-physical stats, EMIYA is 3 ranks higher in mana capacity, and Kojiro is 4 ranks higher in luck. Not only is Kojiro physically better, but he's over all better in stats. EMIYA, unlike Artoria, had to compete in technique with an opponent who has a skill that reduces mind's eye's effectiveness. If he were anything less than exceptional for a servant in technique, he would have died on the spot. Why do you think Rama is even remotely close to Kojiro of all people and above EMIYA? Seriously. Are you trying to say that Rama is a peer to Lancelot and Raiko? If so, what justifies such a position?

Right, EMIYA was fighting skill to brawn. That's not what's noteworthy outside of the fact that Saber would've struggled to do the same with better power. What's truly noteworthy is Herc's assessment.

I assume EMIYA has a higher nuke than Rama because we know one of EMIYA's higher-end nukes, but we've only seen Brahmastra from Rama. We've literally seen nothing else, so we're left with nothing but empty speculation. Sure it's possible. Granted the tidbit of where his skill lets him use his weapons to make them on par with NPs isn't exactly inspiring me with confidence that they have that firepower (at least as a Saber).

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

Sorry bud, EMIYA's a one pump chump.

From Atalanta's profile.

Independent Action: A


One is able to act even with the absence of their Master. However, in a situation where one decides to use Noble Phantasms and the like that requires an enormous amount of magical energy to consume, backup from their Master is necessary.


Rin was asleep and unaware of the situation. What do you think this means? Also, explain how Fergus uses Caladbolg with 1/4th of EMIYA's mana.

No- no, he definitely doesn't. Name one instance where Shirou picks up a weapon and suddenly is as good with it as its own legendary hero. It's pretty clear each time Shirou projects a weapon, and the skills involved with it, that the weapon moves on its own. Caliburn fights like the original wielder was using it, he's only able to use K&B after he pirates the skills straight from Archer, Herc's sword does Herc's NP. None of it is his own skill, and he doesn't retain the skills once he's done with it.

If he was as proficient with the weapon as its own original user was, what would be the point in ever learning to use K&B? Just project a Gram in one hand and a Caliburn in the other and suddenly he's as good as Sigurd and Artoria put together!

You've got a way overinflated view of Archer.

Never said as good as its legendary hero, just rebutting that he's not going to be unable to use his weapons just because "he doesn't know how to use them" like you said. You're putting words into my mouth to rebut a statement that's a direct quote of complete material 3.

[Reign]

imo Archer wouldn't be half as fun to watch/read fight if he was a powerhouse. His appeal as a fighter is how hes low-medium on the scaling but has the skills and weapons to compensate (at least to an extent). Like his fight with Cu where he was doing all in his power just to break even is one of his coolest scenes, and it wouldn't be as good of a scene if he and Cu were more evenly matched.

There are powerhouse Servants but Archer isn't one of them and that's part of his appeal. He's Batman among the Justice League.

[LJ3]

It's been a while since we had some Archer wank