Badass Versus Thread

[Ronove]

Wrong.

Fair enough. Where's it said that it slows Karna down though?

I am pretty sure that being on chariot doesn't give Achilles better reflexes so from that context it is pretty clear what kind of speed the book is talking about.

Achilles isn't on his chariot. This is the battle against Vlad in the hallways of the hanging gardens. It's mentioning that even if Achilles isn't on his mount, he's still the fastest hero. And this specifically refers to him batting away Vlad's stakes faster than Karna did.

[Blastedspider]

Fair enough. Where's it said that it slows Karna down though?[/QUOTE]
In the same segment.

It does not even need to be said that Lancer and his spear holds the advantage in terms of range. The head of the weapon alone is easily over one meter in its fearsome length. However, having a wider range naturally slows the speed of attack. A small amount of time is lost with every thrust as the spear must be pulled back.

It's mentioning that even if Achilles isn't on his mount, he's still the fastest hero. And this specifically refers to him batting away Vlad's stakes faster than Karna did.

Yeah, but why?
Being mounted doesn't give a boost to his attack speed but definitely should give an edge when it comes to movement speed. So naturally, it should refer to the latter.

[fire_mountain_30]

Chiron has eye of the mind, clairvoyance and overwhelming familiarity with all of Achilles' moves. So no, that's not a representation of anything but Chiron's personal advantages over the man he trained. Not a thing mentioned about running. This refers to his attack speed as well.[/QUOTE]

It was the same even if he wasn’t mounted on his chariot. There was no one, either before or after his death, who had beaten the great hero Achilles of the Trojan War in speed. Though he was one step slower than Rider, Lancer of Red was also quick-witted and agile.

Speed =/= agility

Please refer to the materials on Cu's speed vs Medusa's speed for additional info

[Menwearpink]

"Hability and power" =/= "sheer martial skill"

Also, "by ruler's estimation". Pretty sure Karna and Cu were by the "omniscient" narrator's statement. Fallible narrators and all that

You'd think a ruler servant has a good idea on servant capabilities.

Dantes' lets him see you as if you were frozen and ru circles around you and set up multiple attacks from different angles so faster that to you they seem to all happen at the same time.

Kiritsugu's describes him as being "invincible" up close because of it and has him blitz your servant a dozen times over before you can do anything in the animation.

Achilles got nothing on that

I mean animations, where no one reacts at all unless it's a gag is not a good show of speedblitzing. Achilles's normal attack animations are crazy in terms of speed too. Anyway it's a silly way to try and argue I'd say.

Otherwise I mean sure he's "invincible" but that's just hyping up chuuni text. Practically it might let him fight a knight class for a while but we all know he'll lose.

"Lets compare speed feats and a shield that he never bothers to use"

> me

"Rune boosts to durability, strenght and speed, hyper regeneration through runes and firebombs to the face"

I mean the runes are what make him able to keep up imo with Achilles's speed and shield. Which is why I call it a pretty even fight.

[fire_mountain_30]

Karna's Vasvi Shatki was still sealed at this point. It's just the golden sun-tip version, no bigger or weightier than any other spear. Chiron has eye of the mind, clairvoyance and overwhelming familiarity with all of Achilles' moves. So no, that's not a representation of anything but Chiron's personal advantages over the man he trained.

Clairvoyance is long range sight and x ray vision, not precog

Eye of the mind is a very small boost, if it wasnt, Cu vs Archer wouldnt be super one sided nor would Shirou Kotomine with Revelation and 2 types of Eye of the Mind have given up on fighting Achilles the moment he even remotely started trying in their mock battle.

Not to mention, really? You think none of these heroes with years if not decades of combat experience never faced a lunge from a spear? Do i need to refer to Cu vs Archer in the prologue on how dealing with a spear lunge isnt any harder than dodging a straight line? Not to mention, against Chiron, it was only late into the fight that he decided to stop fighting using "by the book" tactics. You think none of these heroes never had a match against anyone using "by the book" spear tactics?

Finally, i remind you of Semiramis intercepting Achilles' thrust with her hand without much trouble when he tried to kill Shirou

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I mean the runes are what make him able to keep up imo with Achilles's speed and shield.

Lol nope. We dont know how much he can boost his own body and they never factored into his fights before or into his narrator given praise

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[/COLOR][/SIZE]You'd think a ruler servant has a good idea on servant capabilities.

They know true names and stats.

Where is the stat for "martial technical prowess"? Where can i see it on Herakles' stat sheet? Would love to clear some things up regarding the angry boy

[Rafflesiac]

Clairvoyance is explicitly precognition at higher ranks, look at Arash, look at Gil, look at Scathach, and look at Chiron.

[Ronove]

In the same segment.

This isn't saying the spear's weight makes Karna's slower. It's saying because it's a long weapon, it takes longer for him to joust with it. Something that would also apply to Achilles and all Lancers that use spears.

Yeah, but why? Being mounted doesn't give a boost to his attack speed but definitely should give an edge when it comes to movement speed. So naturally, it should refer to the latter.

You're confusing the lines

A black cloak that melted into the night and stakes that stabbed out from inside it had been summoned forth. Since they weren’t summoned from the ground, there was no fear of a surprise attack, but—the stakes were thrown with the superhuman strength of a vampire, breaking the sound barrier as if it were extremely natural.

Vlad attacks with his stakes

“Tch, how troublesome…!!” Rider of Red stepped into range and rapidly snapped them away with his spear. Generally speaking, there was no one among these Servants present who could beat him in terms of speed.

Achilels smacks them away with his spear, a feat directly attributed to his speed, otherwise the following remark of him being the fastest servant present comes out of nowhere and is irrelevant.

It was the same even if he wasn’t mounted on his chariot. There was no one, either before or after his death, who had beaten the great hero Achilles of the Trojan War in speed.

This is a followup of him as the fastest servant, not directly to his batting away Vlad's stakes.

Though he was one step slower than Rider, Lancer of Red was also quick-witted and agile. He smashed all the stakes that had been shooting at him since earlier.

Here is a direct comparison back to the second quote. Karna is called slower, but still quick-witted and agile (reflex), and that's emphasized by him smashing away the stakes, just like Achilles did. Something that again, didn't require moving anything but his arms. Why would movement speed be relevant in this context when the relevant actions are about them destroying Vlad's stakes?

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Clairvoyance is long range sight and x ray vision, not precog

Clairvoyance at high ranks are precog, just like Arash. Chiron's becomes future sight when combining clairvoyance with eye of the mind. Read his materials. Additionally, Chiron's full knowledge on Achilles amplifies his reaction time.

Finally, i remind you of Semiramis intercepting Achilles' thrust with her hand without much trouble when he tried to kill Shirou

Good for her then?

Where is the stat for "martial technical prowess"? Where can i see it on Herakles' stat sheet? Would love to clear some things up regarding the angry boy

Like I posted in the last page. Karna >= Siegfried is said in Apocrypha.

The superiority of Lancer's technique exceeded Saber's by a slight degree, but Saber was tougher in body. All things considered, they were more or less an even match in strength. A moment's carelessness could lead to a pierced heart or severed head.

Achilles has no problems fighting and overpowering Siegfried in melee even when he's got Fran for backup. They're at least on the same level martial skill.

[AAM1232]

Sorry, I'm still not seeing why Cu is getting a bit overrated here, considering his stats and skill set doesn't exactly work that well against someone who has Battle Con at the same rank as him, has an additional skill that lets him do more damage in melee and has a bunch of counters to Cu's NPs. Not that it's a one sided match, but it's not exactly fair to straight up pretend like it's all going in Cu's favour.

[Blastedspider]

This isn't saying the spear's weight makes Karna's slower. It's saying because it's a long weapon, it takes longer for him to joust with it. Something that would also apply to Achilles and all Lancers that use spears.

His spear is specifically said to be light and normal-sized in comparison to Karna's.

Achilels smacks them away with his spear, a feat directly attributed to his speed, otherwise the following remark of him being the fastest servant present comes out of nowhere and is irrelevant.

If he moves faster than everyone naturally he would be the first to face Vlad's attack. It makes perfect sense to emphasize his speed in that context.

Why would movement speed be relevant in this context when the relevant actions are about them destroying Vlad's stakes?

I am pretty sure they aren't just standing still and deflect the attacks.

[Ronove]

His spear is specifically said to be light and normal-sized in comparison to Karna's.

Yeah not seeing it. Using the quotes you linked.

It is a massive spear, far longer than the man himself is tall. The spear is so enormous that it does not seem possible for a human to wield, and of such exquisite appearance that it is practically a work of art. It can only be described as a weapon granted by the Gods

Karna's spear is heavy for a human, not a demi-god. So automatically, it's weight isn't relevant.

It does not even need to be said that Lancer and his spear holds the advantage in terms of range. The head of the weapon alone is easily over one meter in its fearsome length. However, having a wider range naturally slows the speed of attack. A small amount of time is lost with every thrust as the spear must be pulled back.

Weight isn't a factor here either. It just said a weapon that long has a wider range and thus thrusts are slower. It isn't a unique property of Karna's spear but all spearmen with long ranged weapons. The same thing happened to Cu in FSN, where Saber said a spearman trying to face a swordsman in a closed room was stupid, and Cu acknowledges his disadvantage.

If he moves faster than everyone naturally he would be the first to face Vlad's attack. It makes perfect sense to emphasize his speed in that context.

Except that's not what he does? The quote again.

Rider of Red stepped into range and rapidly snapped them away with his spear

The speed adjective is placed on his attack, not his movement.

I am pretty sure they aren't just standing still and deflect the attacks.

Is the quote saying they moved? Because it mentions Karna's "agility" but all he does is block the spears with his own lance. None of you have provided have any proof that Achilles' speed can't be used in combat. It makes even less sense as, once more, Achilles being the fastest hero doesn't mean he'll be blitzing all other heroes, much less Cu. Additionally, we have his own melee feats to use here. They're enough that Achilles can practically play around with Siegfried's sword skill, even with the aid of another, albeit mediocre, servant.

[fire_mountain_30]

Clairvoyance is explicitly precognition at higher ranks, look at Arash, look at Gil, look at Scathach, and look at Chiron.

Pretty sure Arash only gets mind reading and such.

All your other examples have "long term future sight", not "i am going to throw a right hook at you the next milisecond after this current left kick that i making" precog.

That is like saying a fortune teller with a crystal ball can casually dodge punches, because "seeing the future" is somewhere on their resume

[AAM1232]

"With the combined effects of his skills, he can even utilize a pseudo-form of future sight, making him truly all-purpose in his abilities."

From Apo mats. Not sure why this is not precognition for no reason.

[fire_mountain_30]

Sorry, I'm still not seeing why Cu is getting a bit overrated here, considering his stats and skill set doesn't exactly work that well against someone who has Battle Con at the same rank as him, has an additional skill that lets him do more damage in melee and has a bunch of counters to Cu's NPs. Not that it's a one sided match, but it's not exactly fair to straight up pretend like it's all going in Cu's favour.

1- ok, so Herk is a bad match against Cu because they have rank A battle continuation, by that logic.

2- Bravery isnt "extra damage", it is "extra skill". I believe YOU corrected this some time ago. Also, i believe that this is only when he fights bare handed.

3- "has a bunch of of counters to Cu's NPs". He has 1 counter that he never brings out for some reason despite being a greek that should fight with a shield, "Akhilleus Cosmo" peobably takes longer to chant and therefore longer to cast than "gae bolg" and Cu has like 50 different things he can do with runes, both for boosting himself or just casting spells

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"With the combined effects of his skills, he can even utilize a pseudo-form of future sight, making him truly all-purpose in his abilities."

From Apo mats. Not sure why this is not precognition for no reason.

You do realize that i am talking about skills individually and not in combination, right?

Also, "pseudo" is the key word there. It isnt the real deak nkr do we know of how good it is compared to the real deal.

[Ronove]

1- ok, so Herk is a bad match against Cu because they have rank A battle continuation, by that logic.

False equivalence

2- Bravery isnt "extra damage", it is "extra skill". I believe YOU corrected this some time ago. Also, i believe that this is only when he fights bare handed.

Bravery is extra damage, but yes, with his fists, not his spear.

3- "has a bunch of of counters to Cu's NPs". He has 1 counter that he never brings out for some reason despite being a greek that should fight with a shield, "Akhilleus Cosmo" peobably takes longer to chant and therefore longer to cast than "gae bolg" and Cu has like 50 different things he can do with runes, both for boosting himself or just casting spells

It really doesn't. And it's somewhat ironic you bring up Achilles never fighting with his shield, when Cu barely ever uses his runes as Lancer. What do Runes even offer Cu here? Achilles is faster, this fight with almost involve no NPs at all because they're both speed fighters that like going at it in CQC. Achilles has no reason to stand there and allow Cu to bust out Gae Bolg. Sorry to say, Achilles has better feats with melee and better parameters.

[Wandering Swordwoman]

Yea and it's not like Cu just gonna stand there when Achilles trying to stab him
What do you mean? He let Siegfried tried to Balmung him

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This would be true if it was about Achilles trying to dodge GB. It's about Achilles pressuring Cu so GB never comes into play in the first place. We've seen this tactic with Karna vs Siegfried.

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Comet Form is used in combat. Inheritance of Glory has him evading the attacks from multiple servants. I'm pretty sure he used his godspeed against Chiron in combat as well.


Karna and Siegfried are equal in martial prowess. Achilles vs Siegfried goes like:

Spoiler:

Lol what a joke
It'll be not long before Siegfried or Karna become used to his speed and wipe his smug just like what Chiron did

[Ronove]

Yea and it's not like Cu just gonna stand there when Achilles trying to stab him

Your point?

What do you mean? He let Siegfried tried to Balmung him

Achilles already confirmed Siegfried couldn't hurt him. Cu has divinity.

It'll be not long before Siegfried or Karna become used to his speed and wipe his smug just like what Chiron did

Achilles isn't even moving in those scenes. He's just outskilling them. Karna and Sieg can't replicate any of Chiron's feats, not unless they turn back time, train Achilles from scratch, then develop future sight. In Siegfried's case, he'd also need to somehow get divinity.

If fanfiction is what's necessary for Achilles to lose, then go ahead.

[AAM1232]

He let Siegfried Balmung after figuring out Siegfried couldn't hurt him, something Cu can do due to Divinity. He's not stupid, you know.

Again, where's this overrating coming from?

[Zurvan]

tbh Achilles' feats in FGO are possibly more insane than in Apo, and we haven't even touched on that

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Lol what a joke
It'll be not long before Siegfried or Karna become used to his speed and wipe his smug just like what Chiron did

Great post, but Siegfried quite literally can't win without outside help

[forumghost]

Yeah, Cu is great, but Achilles is like, uber wanked.

"People call me 'Swift footed' so even though I literally was outrun by a guy for 3 Days I have a NP that makes me conceptually faster then anyone ever"
"My mummy loves me so much that all my stats are amped to high heaven"
"I have like, 5 different NP that should all be exclusive to individual Classes but I get them all at once because reasons"

He's so OP that he literally has an ability that only exists so that he can weaken himself to enable him to be beaten.

[Zork Knight]

"I have like, 5 different NP that should all be exclusive to individual Classes but I get them all at once because reasons"

I thought the Rider Class's whole schtick was always piling up as many NPs as possible in the same container?