Badass Versus Thread

[fire_mountain_30]

Can he use Kosmos and Tragoidia in conjunction? That seems like the best bet to me: block Gae Bolg with one and trample with another.

That would result in a death by mana drain so hardcore that Karya would blush

[Ronove]

A- it flat out says that he has the advantage

In thrust. What part of anything I linked in his confrontation with those two showed him thrusting his spear?

B - it isnt bait. Apo was created and supervised by Nasu as a LN. Anything else is an adaptation susceptible to the personal perspective of the person adapting the story. You have the source material, stick to it. You dont see anyone quoting the UBW anime or movie instead of the VN and acting as if these hold equal or greater value to the VN

...

Apo was supervised by Nasu, but he is not the writer. Higashide is Apo's writer, and he is also the writer of the manga.

As for the bolded? Nasu helped write and phone in his ideas for unlimited blade works 2014-2015. So yes, that is canon.

[fire_mountain_30]

Karna has never been mentioned to be in the top 3 lancers in skill last I checked or will you quote that? All i recall is that the text said his skill surpasses humanity.

Prety sure that FGO was the one throwing out the Karna wank in America, though maybe there was some in Apo as well.

If i am wrong, well that just adds more weight on Cu's end because that would mean that the praise he is given for his spearmanship is way above Karna's

[AAM1232]

Strange. This weakness isn't mentioned in any of the official materials (World Material even says that unless the target has high LCK it is already dead when Gae Bolg is released) or matchups (it can even kill Arcuied). I wonder what the original text said. Then again, Gae Bolg is noted to be unusually cost-effective (it can be fired seven times in a row with Master's support) while the Kosmos should be very expensive to maintain. But, yeah, Achilles chances to look better indeed. Still I don't think the fight be one-sided. They are probably roughly equivalent in skill, and the stats difference isn't particularly noteworthy ("+" to STR and 2 ranks in END), and if we take Archer's word for it Cu Chulainn should be faster in therms of attack speed. On the Skills side Achilles has a bonus to melee damage due to Bravery while Cu has Runes which are quite versatile (direct magical damage, terrain effects, boost etc.).

When it comes to Noble Phantasms Achilles has a sizeable arsenal but most of it is useless in that scenario. Andreias Amarantos won't do anything against Lancer, the dual field one would most likely nerf Achilles more than the enemy, and the running can probably be disabled with Ath nGabla. That leaves Troias Tragoidia and Kosmos. The chariot itself doesn't sound as something impressive (I don't think he even uses it against anything but the fodder in Apocrypha) and if we judge solely by ranks its power should be inferior to that of The Spear of Striking Death Flight (A vs B+). I can't really measure the effectiveness of shield bash as we have never seen it in action, but somehow can't imagine that it would be something overwhelmingly powerful.

Can he use Kosmos and Tragoidia in conjunction? That seems like the best bet to me: block Gae Bolg with one and trample with another.

So why is Cu now being said to be faster in attack speed based off Archer? Archer hasn't been shown to have known Achilles well enough for that claim to be considered well informed. Cu's NPs are also situationally useless as GB heartstab has a big fat pose leaking magical energy that anyone can sense, while the nuke has him take some distance. Stuff Achilles can easily prevent with his skillset. Also what makes Ath nGabla able to prevent Achilles from using Comet Form, and what makes Troias Tragodia weaker than the GB nuke based off ranks?

What makes Cu so good that Achilles cannot recognise several basic facts that he can find out during a fight, which he use to beat Cu?

[fire_mountain_30]

In thrust. What part of anything I linked in his confrontation with those two showed him thrusting his spear?


...

Apo was supervised by Nasu, but he is not the writer. Higashide is Apo's writer, and he is also the writer of the manga.

As for the bolded? Nasu helped write and phone in his ideas for unlimited blade works 2014-2015. So yes, that is canon.

Writer =/= illustrator.

Ok, so any minimal contribution from Nasu automatically makes everything 100% canon opand of equal value to the VN? Pretty sure that they outright dismissed Nasu's input in some of the last episodes

[AAM1232]

Prety sure that FGO was the one throwing out the Karna wank in America, though maybe there was some in Apo as well.

If i am wrong, well that just adds more weight on Cu's end because that would mean that the praise he is given for his spearmanship is way above Karna's

Not knowing who the other spearmans are =/= Karna is equal to or worse than Cu. Sometimes not knowing stuff means that it's unknown, and pretending to assume stuff from unknowns is fanfiction territory.

[Zurvan]

AAM1232, buddy, it's time to realize that a talking to a brick wall is less of a waste of time

You did good

[Blastedspider]

Difference between weapons doesn't directly correlate to the difference in speed.

If one weapon is called "well-designed for close combat" in a context of being contrasted with another weapon, what conclusion can be made based on that? Especially if another is also said to be heavier than the other.

And for a reason that would apply to just about anyone with a spear.

Not all spears are the same. I can't really find any information on the size of Diatrekhon Aster Lonkhe but unlike Karna's its size is never commented upon, so it is possible to conclude that it is less dramatic. It also shorter in the anime (although the sizes are rarely consistent in the visual medium).

You ignored the LN and the Manga, showing him parrying Fran and Siegfried at the same time. Something that would necessitate him being both physically stronger than they are combined, and able to attack faster than they can to block from opposite angles.

Manga is what? An adaption of an adaptation? I don't think that it is a very informative source. And it's not like Fran and Siegfried are particularly fast (D and B-ranked AGI respectively). On top of that we don't have anything to compare this battle with as group fights are rare in F/SN.

Siegfried's martial prowess and speed is near-equal to Karna's. That was the start of this debate.

Such nebulous statements are hard to measure. Karna's AGI is higher that's for sure, and he himself doesn't seem to be particularly "speedy" fighter himself.

[Ronove]

Prety sure that FGO was the one throwing out the Karna wank in America, though maybe there was some in Apo as well.

If i am wrong, well that just adds more weight on Cu's end because that would mean that the praise he is given for his spearmanship is way above Karna's

And yet Cu loses to Saber in CQC every time they cross weapons. Like do you have actual feats to work with here?

[BlackWatchar]

Karna has never been mentioned to be in the top 3 lancers in skill last I checked or will you quote that? All i recall is that the text said his skill surpasses humanity. It also says Siegfried is near equal to him.


Fate makes it a point that swordsmen have an advantage over spearmen when distance is closed. Achilles' spear is modified so he doesn't face that disadvantage, and he's still better than Siegfried and another servant. I think a marginal technicality of weapons gets thrown out the window here.

The context is their fighting in a small space where spearman cannot freely swing or move their spear. In wide space, spear has massive advantage against sword due to their wide range of hit.

Closing distant between the spear is not easy. Emiya said that Cu can trust and pull back his spear very quickly that he cant find any opening to close his distant. Same case for Siegfried, there even a line that he only able to hit Karna because he let himself get hit first and he can do that because he has AoF

[fire_mountain_30]

what makes Troias Tragodia weaker than the GB nuke based off ranks?

What makes the chariot weaker than the basic Chiron arrows that killed it based off ranks?

Also, GB has the piercing concept to overcome Rho Aias, so it isnt just raw power. It has hax to it.

[AAM1232]

AAM1232, buddy, it's time to realize that a talking to a brick wall is less of a waste of time

You did good

Dunno, am I supposed to feel like I could have changed their minds?

[Ronove]

Writer =/= illustrator.

Ok, so any minimal contribution

I...I don't even

This is the equivalent of saying Morii is to be credit for Strange Fake, not Narita. I hope you know Nasu didn't draw FSN either.

[AAM1232]

What makes the chariot weaker than the basic Chiron arrows that killed it based off ranks?

Also, GB has the piercijg concept to overcome Rho Aias, so it isnt just raw power. It has hax to it.

I'm asking proof for some claims, maybe you or anyone else could start providing them rather than running away to fanfics.

Same for this being applicable to a shield that without it's owner using it could take VS and then fall apart. Both GBs don't come close to that showing.

[Zurvan]

Dunno, am I supposed to feel like I could have changed their minds?

I fear they would refuse to accept the truth even when it slaps them in the face tbh

[fire_mountain_30]

And yet Cu loses to Saber in CQC every time they cross weapons. Like do you have actual feats to work with here?

A- Cu had a bad master with bad circuits

B - Cu was nerfed due to a CS

C- he never lost to Saber in close quarters. Did she inflict so much as a scratch on him?

D - depends, do you want me to use FGO stuff, 3rd party cross character scalingm etc...? If not, then we can only work with the Uber nerfed and limited version of Cu in FSN, because again, Fuck you Kirei

[Ronove]

If one weapon is called "well-designed for close combat" in a context of being contrasted with another weapon, what conclusion can be made based on that? Especially if another is also said to be heavier than the other.

Karna's weapon is heavy and more destructive =/= Karna gets slower using it. As all this depends on Karna's own physical strength relative to his spear. A point you've continued to dance around due to a lack of conclusive evidence.

Manga is what?

Written by the author and therefore holds just as much weight in canon.

And it's not like Fran and Siegfried are particularly fast (D and B-ranked AGI respectively). On top of that we don't have anything to compare this battle with as group fights are rare in F/SN.

Siegfried has matched Karna in movement and attack speed.

I don't think we need to stretch the imagination to understand that Achilles looks as good if not better fighting a 2 on 1 than Karna does in a 1 v 1, against the same guy and more.

Such nebulous statements are hard to measure. Karna's AGI is higher that's for sure, and he himself doesn't seem to be particularly "speedy" fighter himself.

I honestly have no idea what you're going for at this point, honestly.

[Zurvan]

Uh, Extra's Cu (fueled by Rin) has the same stats

[fire_mountain_30]

I...I don't even

This is the equivalent of saying Morii is to be credit for Strange Fake, not Narita. I hope you know Nasu didn't draw FSN either.

Thr manga, yes, not the LN story.

Unless Narita has rweets going like "i wanted him to draw this panel exactly like this"

[Ronove]

A- Cu had a bad master with bad circuits

And...Saber didn't?

B - Cu was nerfed due to a CS

Not in the basement. And said "CS" didn't stop him from using GB either, which he fully expected would kill Saber. Nasu 101.

C- he never lost to Saber in close quarters. Did she inflict so much as a scratch on him?

Church fight. In a room where they can only fight CQC, both Saber and Kirei say Lancer can't win against her.

D - depends, do you want me to use FGO stuff, 3rd party cross character scalingm etc...? If not, then we can only work with the Uber nerfed and limited version of Cu in FSN, because again, Fuck you Kirei

Use whatever you want. As long as it makes sense.

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Thr manga, yes, not the LN story.

Unless Narita has rweets going like "i wanted him to draw this panel exactly like this"

Manga has these thing called, dialogue, story, characterization. You know, things that are handled by the author, not necessarily the artist?