Badass Versus Thread

[BlackWatchar]

I know that '+' modifier is something momentary and doesnt have clear explanation how to trigger it, bit isnt there some that explained where the modifier come from

Like Karna's Brahmanstra and Brahmanstra Kundala. Both are A and A+ rank respectively but it stated in material that BK is just Brahmanstra+Prana Burst. If that the case then the '+' modifier in BK come from Prana Burst which mean in any situation BK is always A+ (like the modifier is always on) because its an upgrade version of Brahmantra

IMO, maybe this also applied to Gae Bolg as well. Cu has 2 version but in the end it just the same np but different method to use it. The trust version is B while the thrown version is B+ because Cu put more mana into it.

[Zurvan]

So, what’s the question now?

Can you make my naem yellow for shits n giigles

[Blastedspider]

We don't know what makes GB conditionally stronger, unlike Achilles's STR B+ which has a strong indication in Bravery and so on what makes it double.

I am not sure from where does the "conditionally stronger" part even comes from. The Side Material makes it sound as if it is just something you can do like not different from any other ability.

I've given reasons as to why GB (both forms) shouldn't be that great against Achilles as he has the capabilities to work his way around them.

We don't know much about how NP prevention works (not enough examples) and I don't want to discuss the tactics they might use against each other.

[AAM1232]

if you don't want to debate then why bother answering? Come on, stat sheet comparisons put Achilles ahead, which makes tactics the only real part worth discussing at all.

[Blastedspider]

Fate Strange Fake, FGO, I cant be bothered to check others

Gilgamesh with Tine as Master has the same stats as under Tokiomi, which indicates that Kirei isn't all that great of a Master. And the stats of F/SN cast seem to unchanged in F/GO.

if you don't want to debate then why bother answering? Come on, stat sheet comparisons put Achilles ahead, which makes tactics the only real part worth discussing at all.

It actually doesn't. Achilles has somewhat better stats and some melee bonus from Bravery, running ability, the chariot, and the shield, while Cu has Rune Magic, Disengage, two versions of Gae Bolg and superior attack speed (at least if we take Archer word for it). So a lot of uncertainties exist.

Can Kosmos actually protect against Gae Bolg? Yes, "a shield" can probably do it (I am still curious why this is mentioned only once and never ever comes up again) and Kosmos is an A+ ranked NP. However, the Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death isn't an ability which can't be represented by numbers (and it also can kill Arcueid, who is an extension of a "World" in some sense) so we have no idea if its magical energy enough to overpower the curse.

Can Achilles use two NPs simultaneously? If it's possible then he has a clear path to victory but if it isn't the case then he seems to come short when it comes to pure attack power.

So I tend to see it as a fight that might go either way.

[BlackWatchar]

IIRC, Nasu has his own way to measure his servant which mean comparing stat between servant is kinda pointless

I mean, Asterios has the highest STR (A++) yet he didnt come close to someone like Tiamat who stat wise is lower than him (A+)
Angra Mainyu has A rank AGI same as Cu and Karna, yet he said himself that he is just 10x better than human
If you take joke as the finest lore, then let me remind you that E rank STR Anastasia can lift a 2 ton Ivan without any issue

[Blastedspider]

If we could just ask Nasu there wouldn't be any discussion, isn't it?

I am using what I have. And Beasts are probably have superior containers like Grands, so their ranks don't tell us much.

[AAM1232]

Gilgamesh with Tine as Master has the same stats as under Tokiomi, which indicates that Kirei isn't all that great of a Master. And the stats of F/SN cast seem to unchanged in F/GO.



It actually doesn't. Achilles has somewhat better stats and some melee bonus from Bravery, running ability, the chariot, and the shield, while Cu has Rune Magic, Disengage, two versions of Gae Bolg and superior attack speed (at least if we take Archer word for it). So a lot of uncertainties exist.

Can Kosmos actually protect against Gae Bolg? Yes, "a shield" can probably do it (I am still curious why this is mentioned only once and never ever comes up again) and Kosmos is an A+ ranked NP. However, the Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death isn't an ability which can't be represented by numbers (and it also can kill Arcueid, who is an extension of a "World" in some sense) so we have no idea if its magical energy enough to overpower the curse.

Can Achilles use two NPs simultaneously? If it's possible then he has a clear path to victory but if it isn't the case then he seems to come short when it comes to pure attack power.

So I tend to see it as a fight that might go either way.

Again, an unsourced claim that no one has given proof is supposed to be taken seriously.

We are given clear instructions on how to defeat/avoid GB. Instructions that Achilles can carry out, and given his better stats and accolades, why he wouldn't be able to (over time) is not very clear.

I see no reason to link Arcueid to Kosmos, so why bring that up.

He's using 2 NPs often, considering Amarantos and Comet Form are always active NPs, so next question.

Yes, if you ignore facts that meddle with your point of view on the fight, one might see this as somewhat even.

[Bugs]

Anyone with 10+ posts in this thread should just be instabanned

[Rafflesiac]

Anyone with 10+ posts in this thread should just be instabanned

wow, hurtful

[Remy]

It actually doesn't. Achilles has somewhat better stats and some melee bonus from Bravery, running ability, the chariot, and the shield, while Cu has Rune Magic, Disengage, two versions of Gae Bolg and superior attack speed (at least if we take Archer word for it). So a lot of uncertainties exist.

Can Kosmos actually protect against Gae Bolg? Yes, "a shield" can probably do it (I am still curious why this is mentioned only once and never ever comes up again) and Kosmos is an A+ ranked NP. However, the Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death isn't an ability which can't be represented by numbers (and it also can kill Arcueid, who is an extension of a "World" in some sense) so we have no idea if its magical energy enough to overpower the curse.

Can Achilles use two NPs simultaneously? If it's possible then he has a clear path to victory but if it isn't the case then he seems to come short when it comes to pure attack power.

So I tend to see it as a fight that might go either way.

Where can we see that Cu has superior attack speed? Attacks from Achilles decribed as ''possessing divine speed'' by Chiron, centaur somehow managed to deflect them only on the basis of complete knowledge about Achillese's fighting style and combination Clairvoyance(B+) and Eye of the Mind(A). Lately, Chiron tell us that he not sure, how he may deal with divine speed of Achilles lance in their last fight, and how long he may deflect his attacks. And Chiron physic stats from the sheet - BAA+, also he has top-class skills in martial arts.

In comparison, Archer has Eye of the Mind(B), minor knowledge about Cu's fighting style from the first fight and physic stats DCC, and his skills in swordfight described by Saber as...yogurt))

Of course, Chiron looks like a much better rival for Achilles than Archer for Cu...But if we check their stats, abilities and circumstances, I think we see, that Achilles in close fight has obvious advantage.

Acilles Kosmos, as we can see in the sheet, is not a Phantasm, that require great skill or power to activate, so I think, that Achilles can use shield and chariot together.

Where can we see about thrown Gae Bolg has homing properties? Because, if it hasn't, chariot simply avoid it

[fire_mountain_30]

Cuz that's his (nearly) maxed stat pool, bar Extella (which just ups his endurance) thats the stats he wields regardless of master

we'd have seen it change significantly otherwise

still need to confirm how good a master that Rin is. honestly, the reason we get that we get for him not having proto Cu's stats being a matter of mentality is pretty weak.

there also exists the matter of TM often reusing the stats that a character had for the longest time in the story they were introduced in originally when they are put into another story (Gil getting Kirei stats in FGO is the biggest example on my mind)

not to mention that when Nasu discussed Diarmuid vs Cu, he said that Diarmuid has more raw power because his master is superior to Cu's, flat out heavily implying that Cu is not maxed out.

then again, Cu already has pretty good stats anyway, so who cares.

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Tbh Achilles in Fuyuki would probably be weaker and Cu in Europe could be a bit stronger.

no, Achilles is actually noted early in Apo to have really high levels of fame on a global scale

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Cu can carve all runes "instantly".
And, while I admit that, we're slipping into a discussion of specific tactics again, rushing head-first into activating Noble Phantasm is kind of dumb move as you'd have no idea what it actually does. It might actually be an ultimate counter-attack which kills you the moment you get close or something like that.

considering Cu had Frag in the myths and says that he knows more about it than anyone else despite Bazzet having a 0 kill count by the time Kirei stole him away, it would be fun to see someone do that like an idiot only for Cu to kill them with Frag

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if you don't want to debate then why bother answering? Come on, stat sheet comparisons put Achilles ahead, which makes tactics the only real part worth discussing at all.

remind me when a knight class actually lost because of a stat difference, that wasnt against a Berserker.

[AAM1232]

Remind again when you want to use the source materials instead of fanfictions.

[Tobias]

Not that I really have a dog in this fight but nasu has also described cu as attacking with the speed of the gods

[Remy]

Not that I really have a dog in this fight but nasu has also described cu as attacking with the speed of the gods

Of course. But statement from Chiron and Archer Emiya may be somewhat different in nature, because meanings of ''divine speed'' by Chiron(with his stats and skills) and Emiya(with his stats and skills) may differ)

[Agailius]

Man, I didn't think this would carry on as long as it has. Kind of makes me reflect on what I've unleashed.

*grabs popcorn*

[Blastedspider]

Again, an unsourced claim that no one has given proof is supposed to be taken seriously.

I do not claim that Cu Chulainn is 100% nerfed by Kirei (and if you haven't noticed I didn't count this in sheet vs sheet matchup when talking to you). It just seems like a distinct possibility, which shouldn't be dismissed on spot.

We are given clear instructions on how to defeat/avoid GB. Instructions that Achilles can carry out, and given his better stats and accolades, why he wouldn't be able to (over time) is not very clear.

No, we're not. The Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death is explicitly one of those Noble Phantasms which cannot be accurately measured in numbers, so it's not possible to say if Kosmos can overpower the curse or not. We also know that Archer's Rho Aius can't and its strength should be somewhere around the level of Soaring Spear that Strikes with Death (i. e. B+).

and given his better stats and accolades, why he wouldn't be able to (over time) is not very clear.

A slight edge in stats probably shouldn't affect the battle that much. I don't see how superior END can help in preventing Cu from using Gae Bolg and increase in damage (due to "+" and Bravery) is hardly a decisive factor either. And it's not like Cu's accolades are worse.

I see no reason to link Arcueid to Kosmos, so why bring that up.

I mention her because the shield protects the wield by reproducing the World (Cosmos) and Arcueid IS the World in a sense.

He's using 2 NPs often, considering Amarantos and Comet Form are always active NPs, so next question.

Lancer's Divinity is higher so Amarantos is quite literally useless.

Achilles is just badly designed as a Servant. He has 5 Noble Phantasms yet lacks in the "trump card" department. So, outside of a somewhat higher stats, he actually has no advantages over Cu, and even that advantage isn't that big.

[SpoonyViking]

Point of fact, Herakles' stats are much higher than Saber's, and yet in the UBW route in the novel she has a distinct advantage over him throughout their fight in the graveyard just due to superior skill and tactics. Heck, an even better example of difference in stats not being nearly as overwhelming as people think is Rin putting the beatdown on C-Rank Agility Medea, the same one who beat Saber in initiative during the crossroad fight.

[Blastedspider]

In comparison, Archer has Eye of the Mind(B), minor knowledge about Cu's fighting style from the first fight and physic stats DCC, and his skills in swordfight described by Saber as...yogurt))

Servants seem to know more than they should, probably as a side effect of being elevated into the Throne of Heroes. For example, it is said that every Heroic Spirit can instantly recognize Excalibur without Invisible Air, even if they lived before or after Saber's time. Its also one of the first Fate info dumps so I don't see the reason to dismiss it.

Where can we see about thrown Gae Bolg has homing properties? Because, if it hasn't, chariot simply avoid it

Even though it has no conceptual effect, it's still called an attack that cannot be dodged.

[Remy]

Achilles is just badly designed as a Servant. He has 5 Noble Phantasms yet lacks in the "trump card" department. So, outside of a somewhat higher stats, he actually has no advantages over Cu.

Did you even read Apocrypha?

All of his Phantasms are trump cards. Troia's Tragoidia with it's godspeed, that may overtake everything. Dromeus Cometes, that makes him the fastest hero of all eras(and he may use it in combat, of course). Andreias Amarantos, that makes him invincible(not in this fight). Akilleus Kosmos, that can defend almost from all attacks and also may be usable as attack itself. Diatrekhon Aster Logche, that helps to nullify any outside intervention, like blessings from Gods.

As for Cu Chulainn, Troias Tragoidia will be enough.